Presidential Citations on non 2nd Bn PPCLI

[Bill A]

In Marteinson's We Stand on Guard page 394, there is an image of a Canadian Postal Corps soldier in Germany, December 1963. The CPC fellow is wearing the CPC shoudler title and what appears to be a 1 Canadian Division formation patch. Above the patch there appears to be a Presidential Unit citation patch. Is this possible?

[Phillip Herring]

My understanding is that all personnel on the strength of 2 PPCLI at the time of Kapyong would have been entitled to wear the US Presidential Unit Citation badge for the rest of their military service.
Anybody subsequently posted to 2 PPCLI would wear the Unit Citation badge while posted to the battalion. Once posted out of the battalion, the badge would be removed.
For example, today, a member of RCEME, if posted to 2 PPCLI, would wear the Unit Citation for the duration of the posting.
The member of the Postal Corps could have been a member of 2 PPCLI at Kapyong, or he could have been on the strength of the battalion at some later date.

Phil

[servicepub]

Originally Posted by Phillip Herring

My understanding is that all personnel on the strength of 2 PPCLI at the time of Kapyong would have been entitled to wear the US Presidential Unit Citation badge for the rest of their military service.
Anybody subsequently posted to 2 PPCLI would wear the Unit Citation badge while posted to the battalion. Once posted out of the battalion, the badge would be removed.
For example, today, a member of RCEME, if posted to 2 PPCLI, would wear the Unit Citation for the duration of the posting.
The member of the Postal Corps could have been a member of 2 PPCLI at Kapyong, or he could have been on the strength of the battalion at some later date.

Phil

Phillip
I think you got it right except for the example of the RCEME guy posted to 2PPCLI. He would only wear it if he was on the strength of the unit, i.e., re-mustered as an infantryman and serving in 2PPCLI. It would not apply if you were merely serving in/with the unit.
Clive

[Bill A]

Thanks for this. I have a Royal Canadian Signals OD 7 armlet with the Presidential Unit Citation, which given this information, was likely worn by a former member of the 2nd Bn PPCLI at the time of Kapyong, and then transferred.

[Phillip Herring]

Originally Posted by servicepub

Phillip
I think you got it right except for the example of the RCEME guy posted to 2PPCLI. He would only wear it if he was on the strength of the unit, i.e., re-mustered as an infantryman and serving in 2PPCLI. It would not apply if you were merely serving in/with the unit.
Clive

I'm pretty sure that all personnel on the strength of 2 PPCLI would wear the citation, regardless of occupation. I seem to recall seeing Signals personnel wearing the citation emblem on their DEU while they were on courses in Kingston.

http://www.ppcli.com/Regimental_Manu...nt_File_V3.pdf

305. Authorized to Wear
1. Officers and soldiers who:
a. Were on strength of Second Battalion or were permanently attached as on
War Establishment on the date of the Battle of Kapyong, 25 April 1951, shall
wear the emblem as a permanent part of their uniform;
b. Are subsequently posted on strength of Second Battalion but who were not
present with Second Battalion at the time of the Battle of Kapyong shall wear
the emblem as a temporary part of their uniform, only for so long as they
remain on the strength of Second Battalion; and
c. Were on strength of Second Battalion or were permanently attached as on
War Establishment on the date of the Battle of Kapyong but who were
subsequently posted or transferred to another component of the Canadian
Forces shall wear the emblem as a permanent part of their uniform.

Phil

[soldier1]

Originally Posted by Phillip Herring

I'm pretty sure that all personnel on the strength of 2 PPCLI would wear the citation, regardless of occupation. I seem to recall seeing Signals personnel wearing the citation emblem on their DEU while they were on courses in Kingston.

http://www.ppcli.com/Regimental_Manu...nt_File_V3.pdf

305. Authorized to Wear
1. Officers and soldiers who:
a. Were on strength of Second Battalion or were permanently attached as on
War Establishment on the date of the Battle of Kapyong, 25 April 1951, shall
wear the emblem as a permanent part of their uniform;
b. Are subsequently posted on strength of Second Battalion but who were not
present with Second Battalion at the time of the Battle of Kapyong shall wear
the emblem as a temporary part of their uniform, only for so long as they
remain on the strength of Second Battalion; and
c. Were on strength of Second Battalion or were permanently attached as on
War Establishment on the date of the Battle of Kapyong but who were
subsequently posted or transferred to another component of the Canadian
Forces shall wear the emblem as a permanent part of their uniform.

Phil

I must agree with Phillip here. I knew many RCOC/RCEME pers pre 1968 who served with 2 PPCLI. They all wore the Unit citation while with the Bn but removed it on posting. It was the same when I and all the RCOC/RCEME pers were serving with the Strathcona's in 4 Bde; we wore the black beret and web belt of the Armoured corps and our own Corps titles on BD.
WRT to the Postal Corps soldier in John's book: he is not a young man, probably mid 40s? Judging by the service stripes he is wearing he had 20yrs+
service in Dec 63. That would put him not only old enough to have served as an infantryman in 2 PPCLI at Kapyong but perhaps as an infantryman in 1st Canadian Infantry Division in Italy or NWE Europe? hence The Red Patch?
Having said that; 2 PPCLI were not serving in 4 Bde in 63. 1 PPCLI replaced 1 QOR of C in summer of 63. 2 PPCLI replaced 1 PPCLI in 1966. So the soldier was not attached to 2 PPCLI in 4 Bde in 63.
I would therefore say that the soldier in question fits 305.1 (c) of Phillips post.

Cheers Al

[Bill A]

Hi Al, That was my thinking re the CPC soldier. He did have quite the armful of serivce stripes. The 1 CID patch is legitimate for the posting. There was a divisional support element in Germany, which wore the division patches. There were only a handful of formation patches authorized for wear between 1947 and 1968. I Canadian Division was one and it was formed for the NATO deployment but disbanded in 1958. The support elements of 1 Cdn Div continued to wear that formation patch for some time after it was disbanded.

[servicepub]

Originally Posted by soldier1

I must agree with Phillip here. I knew many RCOC/RCEME pers pre 1968 who served with 2 PPCLI. They all wore the Unit citation while with the Bn but removed it on posting. It was the same when I and all the RCOC/RCEME pers were serving with the Strathcona's in 4 Bde; we wore the black beret and web belt of the Armoured corps and our own Corps titles on BD.
WRT to the Postal Corps soldier in John's book: he is not a young man, probably mid 40s? Judging by the service stripes he is wearing he had 20yrs+
service in Dec 63. That would put him not only old enough to have served as an infantryman in 2 PPCLI at Kapyong but perhaps as an infantryman in 1st Canadian Infantry Division in Italy or NWE Europe? hence The Red Patch?
Having said that; 2 PPCLI were not serving in 4 Bde in 63. 1 PPCLI replaced 1 QOR of C in summer of 63. 2 PPCLI replaced 1 PPCLI in 1966. So the soldier was not attached to 2 PPCLI in 4 Bde in 63.
I would therefore say that the soldier in question fits 305.1 (c) of Phillips post.

Cheers Al

I stand corrected. Perhaps my definition of 'being on the strength' is too narrow. Shows that there is always something to learn.

[ddaydodger]

It was always interesting to see the air force or navy purple trades posted to the battalion wearing the citation on their respective uniforms.