Bent & Parker, and Buttons Ltd.

[Mike]

obviously the question now is who is the B&P Birmingham maker on later silver badges mentioned then? if B&P Stopped dead in its tracks 1916. - we must have another maker.

[KLR]

Well yes, that is a bit of a problem / puzzle: a B&P HMs for 1919, 1921, 1923 silver.
Actually I can't see Ron's piece clearly and I'm clutching at straws wondering if the shape of the shield has been misidentified and that the marks actually refer to 1894, 1896, 1899.
Forgive me for asking but is it a KC or a QVC - I couldn't tell.

Otherwise, I think we'd have to delve into company history - perhaps via the LG, or ask silver trade historians !

BTW what evidence is there for (genuine) Gaunts marks on post 1970s (or even post 1990) badges ?? Perhaps we should write to Firmins to clear that one up too ??
Julian

[Mike]

Originally Posted by KLR

Actually I can't see Ron's piece clearly and I'm clutching at straws wondering if the shape of the shield has been misidentified and that the marks actually refer to 1894, 1896, 1899.
Forgive me for asking but is it a KC or a QVC - I couldn't tell.

Julian

interesting point re : the crown: ... if it's a "U" date letter then its 1894, 1919 or 1944, and if is a king's crown, and definitely B&P, then the first date is excluded and their MM.hallmark continued beyond 1916 or... it's a different company also using a B&P mark.

[Mike]

anyway , back on track. does anyone have a queens crown badge with a Buttons Ltd mark ?


Known products so far:

Army Catering Corps KC 19??-54 (white metal brazier type) KK 2157

Royal Army Ordnance Corps KC 1949-54 KK 2123

Royal Artillery beret badge KC 1947-54 KK 1936

was that it?


Buttons Ltd. Page.

[Mike]

just to clarify an error in my previous posts regarding Gaunts, I was under the impression Gaunts continued manufacturing under the gaunt name but I have been informed today there is no lineage to the old company.

I assume the "J.R. Gaunt & Son" name was simply sold at some point to this new outfit by one of the previous owners. (of course the new owners are manufacturing military insignia)


so as you say KLR, Firmin may be able to confim the end date of the Gaunt mark. (will give them a try)

edit:
but Firmin have this statmet on there site:

"J.R. Gaunt & Son, a member of The Firmin Group, is official supplier of ribbon to HM The Queen and holds a Royal Warrant. "

confused

[Alan O]

[QUOTE=Administrator;6066]anyway , back on track. does anyone have a queens crown badge with a Buttons Ltd mark ?


Known products so far:

Army Catering Corps KC 19??-54 (white metal brazier type) KK 2157

Royal Army Ordnance Corps KC 1949-54 KK 2123

Royal Artillery beret badge KC 1947-54 KK 1936

was that it?

My collection includes a 1947-53 pattern REME cap badge and a large size Q/C London Irish which I presumed was 1950s/ early 60s before they got a/a ones.

Alan

[rmarsden]

Originally Posted by Administrator

obviously the question now is who is the B&P Birmingham maker on later silver badges mentioned then? if B&P Stopped dead in its tracks 1916. - we must have another maker.

See scan of majors crown and my hand drawn sketch of makers mark
those serifs are unmistakenly Bent & Parker.Also there is no doubt about the date letter u.

Ron.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

My collection includes a 1947-53 pattern REME cap badge and a large size Q/C London Irish which I presumed was 1950s/ early 60s before they got a/a ones.

Alan

Many thanks for that Alan, looks like they only produced a narrow range of corps/regiments with makers stamps, best guesstimate now with your QC badge is 1947-65, but your badge could be early so it could be ten years shorter than that. I am sure the asset strippers were in by the earliest 1970s. ah the demise of british manufacturing... nowt left now you know.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by rmarsden

See scan of majors crown and my hand drawn sketch of makers mark
those serifs are unmistakenly Bent & Parker.Also there is no doubt about the date letter u.

Ron.

yes it's very interesting, maybe gaunt had other things on their mind in 1916 - like ramping badge production 50 fold - rather than micromanaging B&P so it looks like they continued for a bit beyond 1916 in some pre-takeover ways.

[Mike]

I have had a reply from Firmin confirming the demise of the Gaunt makers stamp. Gaunt finished production in its own right in 1993 and the use of the Gaunt makers stamp did stop then as well.

[PeterMc]

An example of a Bent & Parker made Royal Irish Constabulary Officers Cross Belt Badge, 1891

[PeterMc]

Another B&P product, this one a pouch badge, dated 1891, which belonged (rather fittingly) to Sir Charles Haughton Rafter KBE KPM, Chief Constable of Birmingham, late District Inspector RIC.

[PeterMc]

NEED TO DELETE - NOT B&P

[dognose]

A couple of advertisements for Buttons Ltd. from 1922:


Buttons Limited - Birmingham - 1922


Buttons Limited - Birmingham - 1922

Trev.

[dognose]

A report from the German Journal 'Kartell-Rundschau: Zeitschrift für Kartellwesen und Verwandte Gebiete' - January 1908:

(Button Trade Amalgamation) Verschmelzung in der englischen Knopfindustrie.

A provisional agreement has been entered (nach einem Bericht der »Times« London vom 12. Nov. 1907) into for the amalgamation of the button manufacturing businesses of three Birmingham firms. The circular states that for some time past a movement has been in progress amongst the leading firms in the button trade with the object of amalgamating the several interests concerned. The advantages which would accrue from such a scheme are many, and include the following:—(I) Avoidance of undue competition; (2) increased purchasing powers of raw materials; (3) reduction in Stocks; (4) the utilization of the whole concern of the most up-to-date machinery and methods of each factory. The firms concerned are Thomas Carlyle (Limited), Plant, Green and Manton (Limited), and Harrison and Smith (Limited).

Hierzu liegt uns folgende Nachricht der Financial News-London vom 12. November 1907 vor:

An important amalgamation has been arranged by the Birmingham button manufacturers—Thomas Carlyle, Limited; Plant, Green, and Manton, Limited; and Harrison and Smith, Limited. The advantages claimed for the scheme are (1) the avoidance of undue competition; (2) increased purchasing powers of raw materials; (3) the reduction in Stocks; (4) the utilisation for the whole concern of the most up-to-date machinery and methods of each factory.

A new company will be formed called Buttons, Limited, with a capital appproximating to 250000£. The purchase price to be paid for Thomas Carlyle, Limited, is 127000£, in 75000 fully paid up five and a-half per cent. preference shares of 1 £ each, and 52000 £ fully paid up ordinary shares of 1 £ each in the new Company. Each 5 £ preverence share will be exchanged for five fully paid five and a-half per cent. preference shares of 1 £ each and each 5 £ ordinary share for four fully-paid-up ordinary shares of 1 £ each in the new Company. The Company was registered in 1897, and the issued capital is 75 000£ in preference and 65 000£ in ordinary shares of 5 £ each.

The consideration payable to Plant, Green and Manton for the sale of their concern is 30 000 fully-paid-up five-and-a-half per cent. preverence shares of 1 £ each and 55 250 fully-paid-up ordinary.

Trev.