8TH RECCE AND 14CLH CAP BADGES.

[macandpud]

Just got these badges as part of a nice tin of armoured corps and tank unit badges,British and Canadian. I believe that the 14th CLH became the 8Th RECCE during ww2. I think the badges are ok as i have had an 8th Recce before.This particular one has a wonderful patina like you get on silver coins in an old cabinet.Any info on the units and badges would be much appreciated.Many thanks in advance.Mac

[barriefield-brian]

That's a real nice 8threcce. Why cant I ever find a deal like that. Cheers Brian

[Tanker Mike]

The 14th Light Horse were before the 8 RECCE, the 14th LH became the 14th Hussars in 1940 then 8 RECCE during the war, then after the war in 1948 became the 14th Hussars, the Light Horse and Hussars badge look similar, except for the name on the scroll, the collars for both were "Free and Fearless" with the prancing horse.

[Bill A]

A bit of a clarification. The wartime unit was the 8th Reconnaisance Regiment (14th Canadian Light Horse). The 8th Recce designation was the CAC name for the unit, which had the regimental sub-designation. For some reason the 8th Recce name became the operative name while other armoured and recce units which also had CAC primary designations but used their regimental names. For example the RCD's were the 1st Canadian Armoured Car Regiment (Royal Canadian Dragoons) and the 2nd Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians), and skipping up the CAC numbering, the 11th Army Tank Regiment (The Ontario Regiment (Tank)) later became the 11th Armoured Regiment (The Ontario Regiment (Tank)).
As indicated above, for some reason the 8th Recce stuck with the primary CAC designation and used it as the basis for the cap badge and the shoulder title design.

[Phillip Herring]

My understanding is the 8th Recce was actually formed as a composite unit drawing personnel from other units in 2 CID and embracing the 8th Recce identity rather than 14th Canadian Hussars was to create a sense of unity and esprit de corps.


From: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-...i/14CH-eng.asp

"The regiment mobilized the '14th (Active) Canadian Hussars, CASF' for active service on 26 January 1941.18 It was converted to armour and redesignated: '8th Reconnaissance Battalion (14th Canadian Hussars), CASF' on 11 February 1941;19 '8th Reconnaissance Regiment (14th Canadian Hussars), CAC, CASF' 8 June 1942;20 and '8th Reconnaissance Regiment (14th Canadian Hussars), RCAC, CASF' on 2 August 1945.21 The unit was formed from personnel of the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division in England and reinforcements from Canada.22 It landed in France on 7 July 1944 as part of the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division, where it fought in North-West Europe until the end of the war.23 The overseas regiment was disbanded on 15 December 1945.24"

There is no mention of the regiment "embarking for the United Kingdom".


Phil

[Bill A]

Hi Phil, I was under the same impression until a little while ago. Apparently a significant draft of 14 CLH personnel was sent overseas at the time the 8 Recce was formed from the personnel surplus due to the reorganization of the divisional recce.

[Darrell]

[QUOTE=Bill A;310093]...For some reason the 8th Recce name became the operative name while other armoured and recce units which also had CAC primary designations but used their regimental names. For example the RCD's were the 1st Canadian Armoured Car Regiment (Royal Canadian Dragoons) and the 2nd Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians), and skipping up the CAC numbering,...

...As indicated above, for some reason the 8th Recce stuck with the primary CAC designation and used it as the basis for the cap badge and the shoulder title design...[.../QUOTE]

Hi Bill

As I understand it, the wartime Corps units were all the have numbers and not names. 14th were the only suckers that fell for it. <wink>

"...Another of the changes that took effect on 11 February 1941 was the formal numbering of the units of the (Canadian Armoured) Corps, as Worthy (F.F. Worthington) had recommended eight months earlier in an effort to foster a distinctive Armoured Corps identity among units that came from very different backgrounds. The old cavalry units with historic names found this policy most distasteful, even though unit names continued to be used in brackets behind the new designations. The official name of the RCD for example became 1st Canadian Armoured Car Regiment (Royal Canadian Dragoons) while the Strathconas became the 2nd Canadian Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse).
The numbering system adopted was itself somewhat confused, reflecting in some cases seniority in the Cavalry Corps, and in others seniority of entry into the Armoured Corps. Units brought in after 11 February (1941) were assigned numbers sequentially based on dates of affiliation. While the numerical designators were used on all official documents until after the war was over, regimental names continued to be commonly used in practice, especially in the former cavalry regiments. With the sole exception of the 8th Reconnaissance Regiment (14th Canadian Hussars), all units continued to wear their own regimental cap badges. The policy on wearing regimental shoulder titles varied from one formation to another, ...."
page 90, The RCAC An Illustrated History, Marteinson & McNorgan, 2000

I wonder if there is mention of the policy of an Army or General Order? Oh, and one cannot say "RCD's". Bad english.

regards
Darrell

[Darrell]

...oh, and Mac?

Nice score.

regards
Darrell

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally Posted by Bill A

the 11th Army Tank Regiment (The Ontario Regiment (Tank)) later became the 11th Armoured Regiment (The Ontario Regiment (Tank)). .

I thought the (Tank) suffixes were dropped when they joined the Canadian Armoured Corps. (Tank) regiments were infantry designations, strangely enough.

Thus:

11th Canadian Army Tank Regiment (The Ontario Regiment)

and when the Churchills were turned in for Shermans

11th Canadian Armoured Regiment (The Ontario Regiment)

[Bill A]

Michael, The designations were taken directly from the DHH lineages site. Note "Canadian" is not included in the official lineage and it was designated 11th Armoured Regiment (The Ontario Regiment) August 26, 1943. That was long after the Ontario's had takent the Sherman into use.

The Second World War

The regiment mobilized the 'The Ontario Regiment (Tank), CASF' for active service on 1 September 1939.20 It was redesignated: 'The Ontario Regiment (Tank), CASF' on 13 August 1940.21 It was converted to armour on 23 November 1940,22 and an army tank battalion on 11 February 1941, under the designation '11th Army Tank Battalion (The Ontario Regiment (Tank)), CAC, CASF'.23 It was redesignated: '11th Army Tank Regiment (The Ontario Regiment (Tank)), CAC, CASF' on 15 May 1942;24 '11th Armoured Regiment (The Ontario Regiment), CAC, CASF' on 26 August 1943;25 and '11th Armoured Regiment (The Ontario Regiment), RCAC, CASF' on 2 August 1945.26 On 21 June 1941 it embarked for Britain.27 The regiment landed in Sicily on 13 July 1943, as part of the 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade, and in Italy on 3 September 1943 in support of 17th Brigade, 5th British Division.28 On 8 March 1945 the regiment moved with the 1st Canadian Corps to North-West Europe, where it fought until the end of the war.29 The overseas regiment was disbanded on 15 December 1945.30http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-...bli/OR-eng.asp