Why stamp the obscured part?

[Jelly Terror]

Apologies if this has been discussed previously - I cannot seem to locate anything specific via the forum search facility...

Bi-metal badges with overlaid scrolls - some examples have an impression of the letters on the back of the scroll, like this:



...whereas others do not:



Why might this be, and might we be able to conclude anything of significance about a particular manufacturer and their production methods?

I assume (though do not actually know) that overlaid scrolls would be stamped separately then applied to the main body of their designated badge. If this is the case, then why might a maker also stamp the obscured part of a scroll?

Might it be the case that badges with this characteristic were struck from dies that had previously been used for all-gilding metal badges, and which then continued into use beyond the period all-G/M variants were required? If so, then perhaps only those bi-metal badges which had all-G/M variants would display this particular feature.

With thanks,

JT.

[Phil2M]

I think you bring up a good point here, I have often wondered the same. I have Leicesters, Suffolks and a Beds all with the scrolls struck underneath the scroll overlay, all of which have a GM EI.

edit: I have noticed the quality of the underlaying strike is often not quite up to standard.

edit: I also have a N Staffs with rope detail in the wm under the gm overlay. Simon Longshanks pagri badge has no detail behind the overlay.

[Jelly Terror]

That's interesting. Thanks, Phil.

[Hoot]

In the case of the Bedfordshire Regiment badge, an all-white metal version was worn from 1908 by the 5th Bn TF. It would have made sense to use the same badge for the Regulars, drill a couple of brazing holes in the scroll and add the gilding metal overlay scroll. Just like that!.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Hoot

In the case of the Bedfordshire Regiment badge, an all-white metal version was worn from 1908 by the 5th Bn TF. It would have made sense to use the same badge for the Regulars, drill a couple of brazing holes in the scroll and add the gilding metal overlay scroll. Just like that!.

H,

So are there examples of this in circulation... W/M Beds. badges with overlaid G/M scrolls, bearing vent holes and the impression of die-stamped letters to the rear?

JT

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Hoot

In the case of the Bedfordshire Regiment badge, an all-white metal version was worn from 1908 by the 5th Bn TF. It would have made sense to use the same badge for the Regulars, drill a couple of brazing holes in the scroll and add the gilding metal overlay scroll. Just like that!.

Here?:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=48705

[Hoot]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

H,

So are there examples of this in circulation... W/M Beds. badges with overlaid G/M scrolls, bearing vent holes and the impression of die-stamped letters to the rear?

JT

JT, there certainly are. I am no longer a collector but, being an old Clanger, I used to have a fair-sized Bedfords collection and I had these types in both "round buckle" and "square buckle" patterns. How I wish I still had them!!.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Hoot

JT, there certainly are. I am no longer a collector but, being an old Clanger, I used to have a fair-sized Bedfords collection and I had these types in both "round buckle" and "square buckle" patterns. How I wish I still had them!!.

H,

Would you know if the all-G/M versions were manufactured with both buckle patterns?

JT

[Hoot]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

H,

Would you know if the all-G/M versions were manufactured with both buckle patterns?

JT

JT, yes, both types, just manufacturer's variations.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Hoot

JT, yes, both types, just manufacturer's variations.

Many thanks.

[KLR]

I have been meaning to ask that question for a while - like many others !!
I'm referring to the 1926 Pattern King's Regt badges - so long after the 1916 all GM Patt.
(I'll even try to take some poor photographs)
I suspect the answer will be given by someone technically minded - like Niebelungen !!

[Neibelungen]

Convenience.
If you already have a die for the non overlay badge then you can use it without having to cut new dies. If an order is enough to warrant new dies then you would.

Think it would depend on suitability, convenience and size of order, plus simply the manufaturers habbit.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Neibelungen

Convenience.
If you already have a die for the non overlay badge then you can use it without having to cut new dies. If an order is enough to warrant new dies then you would.

Think it would depend on suitability, convenience and size of order, plus simply the manufaturers habbit.

Many thanks for this.

So can we say it is reasonably safe to assume that bi-metal badges which had all-G/M versions, and which bear stamped impressions to the metal behind an overlay, could well be struck from the dies used for the all-G/M badges?

If so, this would mean that such examples could now be dated as having been produced post-1916.

JT

[Tiger Pete]

Hi JT,

I have often wondered about this point too.

In the case of the Royal Sussex Regiment, the majority of the badge (Garter Star and Rousillon Plume) was in WM with the bottom title scroll in GM. Most are simply a WM top and GM scroll fixed together in one of a variety of methods.

However, I have an example that is all WM on the reverse with a GM overlayed bottom scroll where the rear of the WM scroll has also been pressed in the manner you describe (not particularly crisply). Assuming this is genuine (and I don't like it 100%), and it'd be a waste of metal to 'over produce' a fake, the last RSR badges that were all WM were Militia or VBs (with an additional lower scroll) pre 1908 TF.

Similarly, I have an all GM badge with an overlayed WM Garter Star and plume to the obverse which is also pressed. This could be post First World War economy following your theory.

I've attached two photos to illustrate my points.

Kind Regards,

Pete.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Tiger Pete

Hi JT,

I have often wondered about this point too.

In the case of the Royal Sussex Regiment, the majority of the badge (Garter Star and Rousillon Plume) was in WM with the bottom title scroll in GM. Most are simply a WM top and GM scroll fixed together in one of a variety of methods.

However, I have an example that is all WM on the reverse with a GM overlayed bottom scroll where the rear of the WM scroll has also been pressed in the manner you describe (not particularly crisply). Assuming this is genuine (and I don't like it 100%), and it'd be a waste of metal to 'over produce' a fake, the last RSR badges that were all WM were Militia or VBs (with an additional lower scroll) pre 1908 TF.

Similarly, I have an all GM badge with an overlayed WM Garter Star and plume to the obverse which is also pressed. This could be post First World War economy following your theory.

I've attached two photos to illustrate my points.

Kind Regards,

Pete.

Pete,

(Please excuse my lack of RSR badge history knowledge if I have this slightly wrong)...

So assuming your badge (viewer's left) WAS produced from dies originally used to stamp out the pre-TF, all-W/M Militia and VB badges, the poorly-defined letter impressions to the rear, could be explained by the fact that by this point in time, these dies were showing signs of wear. Since a G/M scroll would cover this poor definition in any case, use of the die could continue.

As Neibelungen says: convenience.