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  #31  
Old 26-09-13, 01:34 PM
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johanwiegman johanwiegman is offline
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Default Cut-off titles

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Originally Posted by NEMO View Post
HI Johan ,

REF: post 18 your SAS B.D when you say ` cut off` titles do you mean the word ARTISTS was removed please ??

many thanks . ohhh and fantastic thread here many thanks for taking the time to share
Hi,

Indeed, that is what I mean: these titles were originally 'Special Air Service' over 'Artists' and the little 'Artists' appendix was cut off when 21 changed their titles. After the change, 21 members were still issued with a set of the original titles and told to remove the 'Artists' bit before sewing them on their BD.

Of course, later - when stocks of the original ran out - new 'Special Air Service' shoulder titles were produced without 'Artists'. The new shoulder titles were the same as the shoulder titles worn by 22 and 23 SAS.

See picture of the full shoulder title and removed 'Artists' appendix as sold on Bosleys in July 2011. In this case the cutting was done very professionally, probably by a tailor.

Copyright of the picture is with Bosleys.

Cheers,

Johan
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Last edited by johanwiegman; 27-09-13 at 05:50 PM.
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  #32  
Old 02-02-14, 04:02 PM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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Hello Johan,
A most interesting thread, one of the joys of being a new member here, is that you keep finding new things to read.
Tell me, I think from memory that the Artist's Rifles became the 21st SAS at the begining of 1947, what are your own thoughts on their beret badge, have you any examples from original founder members in your collection, I assume that the badge worn was merely the badge that the Artist's issued at that particular moment in time, so nothing whatsoever special about them?
Regards again Frank
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  #33  
Old 02-02-14, 05:02 PM
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Default 21 beret badge

Hi Frank,

The Artists Rifles were raised in 1859 as a volunteer light infantry unit and fought during the Boer War and WW1. Before and during WW2 the Artists Rifles were an OCTU (Officer Cadet Training Unit), not an operational combat unit. They were disbanded in 1945. I am not sure what beret badge was used at the time.

It is good to bear in mind that pre 1947 the Artists Rifles were not SAS or SF, despite what dealers on Ebay want you to believe.

The Artists Rifles were resurrected in 1947 to form 21 SAS.

The beret badge used then was the white metal Mars & Minerva badge with 'Artists' on the scroll. i believe that was the same beret badge as used by WW2 OCTU, but not fully sure.

Cap badges with 'Artists Rifles' on the scroll go back to pre-WW2 times when the Regiment was much bigger.

I have owned a silver M&M cap badge with Artists, probably used by officers.

Cheers,

Johan

Last edited by johanwiegman; 02-02-14 at 09:19 PM.
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  #34  
Old 02-02-14, 05:23 PM
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Default Artists in OCTU role

I believe that the Artists were associated with two infantry OCTUs. I have an image of a Company of 164 OCTU located in the Cors-Y-Gebol Hotel, Barmouth. Merionith. Not a trace of Artist's insignia visible on Directing Staff's headdress. 163 OCTU (Heysham and later, post War, in Maresfield, Sussex) was also associated with (or formed from) the Artist's Rifles - perhaps they had a closer affiliation with the Regiment? Mike
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  #35  
Old 02-02-14, 05:26 PM
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Hello Johan,
Good to hear from you, no, I don't have the time of day for some dealers and ebay etc and I know exactly what you mean, I just wondered what your thoughts were, I think about them every time I walk past their old building on Dukes Road in the city, it has the famous badge over the door.
The white metal badge worn, was actually sealed, I think, in 1938, just wondered what your thoughts were, have you encountered many differing examples over the years or were they all much the same?
Regards Frank
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  #36  
Old 02-02-14, 07:54 PM
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Default 21 beret badge

Hi Frank,

I know of two 21 M&M cap badge variants: one rather nice and one a bit ugly, plus the silver variant, which was very nicely detailed. There was a thread on this beret badge some time ago.

See pics. The one on the maroon beret is in my view not as nice as the other: look at the way Minerva's left eye and nose are shaped and compare to the other badge.

Cheers,

Johan
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File Type: jpg 92a8_1.jpg (42.8 KB, 76 views)

Last edited by johanwiegman; 02-02-14 at 08:19 PM.
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  #37  
Old 02-02-14, 08:11 PM
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Default 163rd OCTU

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Originally Posted by Mike Jackson View Post
I believe that the Artists were associated with two infantry OCTUs. I have an image of a Company of 164 OCTU located in the Cors-Y-Gebol Hotel, Barmouth. Merionith. Not a trace of Artist's insignia visible on Directing Staff's headdress. 163 OCTU (Heysham and later, post War, in Maresfield, Sussex) was also associated with (or formed from) the Artist's Rifles - perhaps they had a closer affiliation with the Regiment? Mike
hi Mike,

I happen to have a shoulder patch of 163rd OCTU, which does indeed show the Mars & Minerva heads, in white on Rifle Brigade Green.

Major Tony Marsh, DSO, who served in 1st SAS from 1942-1945 and in 21 SAS 1950-1954, was in the Artists Rifles after leaving school and was commissioned in the DCLI in 1939.

See picture of the OCTU patch.

Cheers,

Johan
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  #38  
Old 02-02-14, 09:31 PM
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Hello Johan,
Many thanks again, something else that I must start to look at when I encounter them in the future, I have seen a number of nasty fakes in the past that were really quite obvious, but, have never looked at the badge in any detail.
Kind regards Frank


Quote:
Originally Posted by johanwiegman View Post
Hi Frank,

I know of two 21 M&M cap badge variants: one rather nice and one a bit ugly, plus the silver variant, which was very nicely detailed. There was a thread on this beret badge some time ago.

See pics. The one on the maroon beret is in my view not as nice as the other: look at the way Minerva's left eye and nose are shaped and compare to the other badge.

Cheers,

Johan
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  #39  
Old 05-02-14, 04:58 PM
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Hello Jahan,
This is a very interesting post, with regards to the photographs, it appears that someone has "butchered" three berets, was this someone you?
Regards Frank

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Originally Posted by johanwiegman View Post
Friends,

On request, I have turned a reply to another post in a separate thread.

Please find attached some pictures of the insignia configurations worn by 21 SAS from 1947 until battledress was phased out, sometime during the early seventies (in the TA at least, much earlier in the regular army).

What you can see is:

1) First insignia worn: a metal Mars & Minerva beret badge on a maroon beret, '21st S.A.S. (Artists)' shoulder titles on both shoulders, SAS wings and rectangular Winged Dagger arm badge on the right arm, worn from 1947 - 1954.

2) A change of shoulder titles to 'Special Air Service (Artists)' in 1954. I believe the pattern was sealed in March 1953 (the 'Special Air Service' title for 22 SAS was sealed in 1954. The shoulder titles have roughly the same dimensions).

3) A change of the Winged Dagger badge to the maroon beret and a new cloth Mars & Minerva badge to the right arm in May 1956. Many Winged Dagger arm badges were cut into shield shape and sewn onto the beret; various shapes can be observed, some very neat some more irregular.

4) Some time late 1956 the shoulder title changed to 'Special Air Service', the '(Artists)' bit was cut off. Here again, you can see differences in how the title was modified. Some were cut down very carefully, like the title illustrated, some were a bit mutiliated, so to say. Often, small remains of the ( ) can be seen as little pale blue dots.

In 21 SAS the sand coloured beret was introduced late 1957 - early 1958. The 'Special Air Service' shoulder title and M&M badge were worn until battledress was phased out, sometime during the early seventies.

I would be interested to learn when the Mars & Minerva arm badge was phased out. Was that on phasing out of battledress or earlier?

Who can tell me?

Cheers,

Johan
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  #40  
Old 05-02-14, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Hello Jahan,
This is a very interesting post, with regards to the photographs, it appears that someone has "butchered" three berets, was this someone you?
Regards Frank
Hi Frank,

Yes, I plead insanity, but it was a fairly new beret and I cut out patches (with leather rim) to display the beret badges...

Cheers,

Johan
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  #41  
Old 06-02-14, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johanwiegman View Post
hi Mike,

I happen to have a shoulder patch of 163rd OCTU, which does indeed show the Mars & Minerva heads, in white on Rifle Brigade Green.

Major Tony Marsh, DSO, who served in 1st SAS from 1942-1945 and in 21 SAS 1950-1954, was in the Artists Rifles after leaving school and was commissioned in the DCLI in 1939.

See picture of the OCTU patch.

Cheers,

Johan
This is my original OCTU BD, I have the trousers to it as well, all with Rifle Brigade buttons. The Capt appears to an MC winner, I'd love to be able to trace who he was.
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  #42  
Old 06-02-14, 09:50 AM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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Hello Johan,
Glad to hear that they had no age to them!
Regards Frank

Quote:
Originally Posted by johanwiegman View Post
Hi Frank,

Yes, I plead insanity, but it was a fairly new beret and I cut out patches (with leather rim) to display the beret badges...

Cheers,

Johan
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  #43  
Old 06-02-14, 10:00 AM
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Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rordog95 View Post
This is my original OCTU BD, I have the trousers to it as well, all with Rifle Brigade buttons. The Capt appears to an MC winner, I'd love to be able to trace who he was.
Excellent. I never realised that the 163 OCTU Flash came in facing pairs. Something new every day. Mike
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  #44  
Old 06-02-14, 01:32 PM
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Default 163 OCTU patch

Friends,

If somebody is interested, my 163 OCTU patch as illustrated is available for swap or sale as it is outside my collecting scope.

Please PM me if interested.

Cheers,

Johan
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  #45  
Old 13-02-14, 01:22 PM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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Hello Johan,
What do you think of this one?
I've looked at about five or six examples that are original post 1934 badges and they all appeared to be much the same, quite a thin white metal strike of reasonable quality, so I bought this one!
Regards Frank
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