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#31
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Interesting stuff, Andy, will have to read through again and digest it a bit. I am sure that this will keep Jelly and I up all night again.
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"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." |
#32
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Nozzer,
Thanks for taking the time to post your badges and share your thoughts on this. Quote:
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Nozzer's Norfolks.jpg I do not yet have an explanation for how/why there should be a partial impression on the rear of this scroll, but perhaps someone with a better understanding of the stamping process might be able to throw some light on it and offer an explanation for this. Could it perhaps be as Phil speculates in post #17, that the poor definition of the underlying strike may be the result of deliberate grinding to the all-G/M die, the aim of which being to assist in the better placement of the new, overlaid scroll? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote:
First: the bi-metal Vic/Edw badge with blank, rear scroll Vic 1b.jpgVic 1a.jpg Second: the all-W/M badge with the lettering to the rear of the scroll (who would have worn this badge, by the way?) WM 1b.jpgWM 1a.jpg Third: the slidered, bi-metal badge with faint lettering to rear of scroll. BM 1b.jpgBM 1a.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote:
First: the bi-metal Vic/Edw badge with blank, rear scroll 1a.jpg1b.jpg Second: the all-W/M, one-piece badge with the lettering to the rear of the scroll (again, who would have worn this badge?) 2a.jpg2b.jpg Third: the slidered, bi-metal badge with lettering to rear of scroll. 3a.jpg3b.jpg My thanks to Nozzer, for his kind permission to reproduce his images within my post. Last edited by Jelly Terror; 15-03-17 at 11:55 AM. |
#33
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Great stuff JT, keep up the good work.
Just to make things a little more complicated, compare the badges shown in the link below (post #27 of this thread) http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...3&postcount=27 to the two shown below. They all come from the same basic die, except this time we have "2nd V.B" and "4 V.B" in place of "THE" Last edited by Nozzer; 17-02-18 at 10:20 PM. |
#34
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Quote:
The badge is in fact silver plated and not W/M |
#35
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Quote:
Messrs. Jelly & Terror suddenly find themselves with a great many badges to produce, and have every intention of completing their orders to as high a standard as possible, and by the agreed deadlines. The badges the company has been commissioned to manufacture are: 1) Nozzer Inf 2a.jpg 2) Nozzer 2VB 1a.jpg 3) Nozzer 4VB 1a.jpg Messrs. Jelly & Terror can clearly see that all the badges they need to produce are virtually identical. They match each other in every respect other than a few small differences to the scrolls. Being very business-minded kinds of chaps, they of course wish to keep production costs to a minimum in order to maximise profits. They know that making separate dies for each of these badges will be an expensive and time-consuming exercise, and so they quickly realise that if they can in some way come up with a method of producing all the badges for each of the different units from the same die, not only will they have their orders ready on time, but will build up a strong reputation for being fast, efficient and reliable, and be quids in too. But those scrolls... they are a real fly in the ointment. How ever will they be able to stamp badges from the same die and produce them with three different types of scroll? It's a problem! Mr. Jelly says he would like production to centre around one die, possibly with interchangeable scroll sections, and wishes to investigate methods of achieving this. Mr. Terror says otherwise, arguing that three separate dies may initially take a little longer to produce, and incur a little extra cost, but it would certainly speed up production of the three different types of badges. They both wonder if there might be a third way... Looks as though the executive board has a long night ahead deciding on the next step! Last edited by Jelly Terror; 16-03-17 at 05:21 AM. |
#36
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Yes, but the well established firm of "Nozzer & Co of Ware" already have the dies and can confidently undercut you in price and speed
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#37
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Moreover, in his haste to effect unsportsmanlike one-upmanship tactics over Messrs. Jelly & Terror, Ebeneezer Nozzer (the big enchilada of the firm) has overlooked the fact that as a direct result of his tacky undercutting, profits for his company will now not only be non-existent, but will in fact leave the company’s finances in abject deficit. Having foolishly painted himself into a rather dank and claustrophobic corner, our protagonist must now wrestle with his aged conscience and consider such horrors as pay cuts, potential redundancies and even closures. But there is hope yet! In an act of mercy, the Jelly & Terror Badge Co (not without compassion) decides to come to the rescue and offers a lifeline, taking up the majority share in Nozzer & Co, thereby allowing the struggling and incontinent company to retain some semblance of self-respect by remaining in operation, albeit under the All is well with the world again, and the good people of Ware can breathe easy once more, positively dancing in the cobbled streets, content in the knowledge that old man Nozzer can go on as he always has, funding a nasty Farley’s Rusks habit, listening to his beloved 'Turds of Misery' on his gramophone, and continuing to afford his Mecca Bingo season ticket… for the coming season at least. |
#38
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IMG_1629.JPG ...I'd be interested to have members' views: A distinction of the TF (because of their Volunteer origins) was that they should have silver or W/M lace and badges in place of any that were gold or G/M in the Regular Army. However, because this might single TF men out as being anything less than as good as Regulars, the practice was not popular with many men/units of the TF. Since this was seen also as likely to affect recruitment, the WO made provisions in TF regulations for any unit that wanted to, to adopt G/M badges in place of W/M, though permission had to be sought through its county TF Association. Apparently, many units (but not all) applied, and every one that did, was successful in their application. This may mean that the all-W/M Norfolk Regiment badge was the version originally manufactured and intended for use by Norfolk TF units, and might also explain the W/M or plated badges we see to other TF units, so often attributed to being possibly for bandsmen etc. JT Last edited by Jelly Terror; 31-03-17 at 06:45 AM. Reason: Grammar correction. |
#39
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A good point. You get the added complexity of units wearing both. Recent examination of 8th Hants show that the TF wore w/m in Number 1 order of dress and black in khaki. This presumably continued until No1 dress was withdrawn. Bandsmen would have retained it when the majority of wearers were in khaki.
That's before you start looking at what was militia w/m or un-named VB Bn badges such as the all w/m Queens' VB badge. Last edited by Alan O; 31-03-17 at 07:58 AM. |
#40
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Quote:
JT |
#41
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I wonder if I might have overlooked one very obvious possibility here. Given the cessation of the production of all-G/M badges in 1919 (please note that I refer here only to those badges that were previously produced in bi-metal), and the large amount of stock which remained unused/unissued, could it be that some manufacturers simply adapted their excess all-G/M stock, by applying (in the case of the Queen's, for example) white metal scrolls directly on top of the unsupplied all-G/M badges?
This would provide one explanation as to why we see badges to regiments such as this in bi-metal, with perfectly stamped G/M sections behind the W/M scrolls. L4.jpgL2.jpg L3.jpgL1.jpg If the white-metal scroll were to be removed from the badge in the pictures above, it would reveal an all-G/M badge beneath (as in the example below): L6.jpgL5.jpg Last edited by Jelly Terror; 02-01-18 at 12:18 PM. |
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die stamp, scroll |
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