3rd Beach Group - Insignia

[Cam_s]

Hi Guys,

Just started with this forum and I am hoping to track down some information on the insignia my Grandfather would have worn.

He was a Sapper with the 102nd Army Field Company RE which was part of the 3rd Beach Group. He landed on Sicily and then Salerno; where he was ultimately wounded and discharged in 1944.

I have his medals and other ephemera but no patches or badges. I would like to put together a nice frame of everything and I would like to track down the badges for it. What would have have worn?

I see there was a 'BEACH' badge along with a Beach Group badge which was the Red Anchor in a circle. Would he have worn one or both of these?

Thanks for any help,

Cam

[Bill A]

Hi Cam, Welcome to the Forum. Your account is active and open for replies.

[Sonofacqms]

Cam,

Welcome to the forum and I wish you well with your search.

Your Grandfather would have worn a Royal Engineers Cap badge GviR in either gilding metal or brown plastic, black on Khaki "RE" slip-on shoulder titles on his greatcoat and probably 8th Army Div signs.

As to whether 3rd Beach Group had their own individual insignia at this stage I don't know.

Rob

[Mike Jackson]

From my notes:

3 Beach Group

Initially titled B Beach Brick and based on 3 Inf Bde. 3 Beach Group (UK Pattern) was involved in Op HUSKY and also at Salerno in support of 56 Inf Div

[Op Husky 10 Jul 43 and Salerno landings 9 Sep 43]

I believe that the Beach Groups sign - red anchor on blue disc outlined red - was designed, manufactured and brought into use in UK in the Spring of 1944. I have never seen images of it being worn in the CMF, Sicily or Italy. Mike
8 Beach Group.05.jpg

[Mike B]

There are a number of items associated with Beach Groups - but I have not researched which groups wore what insignia. It was a complex organisation and there are likely to be members of this forum with greater expert than me.

With your Grandfather being a Royal Engineer I doubt he would have worn any of the distinctive 'designation' (shoulder titles) illustrated here which were for Signals, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (REME), and Ordnance personnel respectively. The Beach Group badge (first badge illustrated) was more generic however.

Rob has pointed you in the right direction for Royal Engineer (RE) insignia. I note you say his rank was Sapper - insignia would be different for an Officer

Just for information - I also attach images of a pair of Combined Operations badges - associated with some members of beach groups - However possibly not your grandfather (I have not checked if his formation had a Combined Operations connection - although some RE units in Italy did)

I hope this helps, rather than confuses - and have my fingers crossed that some one more expert on the subject than me could clarify things further

Mike


This message crossed with Mike Jackson's - he is certainly more expert on the subject than me.

[Cam_s]

Thanks for the help guys.

So it sounds like the Beach Group patch was not worn by units this early and the RE had no distinctive beach patch.

If anyone else has more information, I would love to hear it!

Thanks,

Cam

[Postwarden]

Although they may have been worn unoficially the War Office refused permission for Beach Groups to wear the Combined Operations sign as after the assault phase their units were absorbed into the Lines of Comunication organisation in the rear areas.

After an appeal to the War Office Moral Committee for “a special flash on grounds of morale”, its place was taken by the Beach Groups sign authorised by Headquarters, Combined Operations in December 1943, confirmed for army use by the War Office in January and finally issued in early March 1944.

Jon

[Mike B]

Jon

Many thanks for the clarification.

Pretty sure I saw an image of a smoke Coy wearing a square folded printed Combined Ops patch. I had assumed RE related - but now believe there was a Swaziland connection as attached link. Must say I can not see Combined Ops sign in the link image below but the other image I saw (I think one of Len Whittaker's) was clearly anotated 'Swazi Smoke Company'.

Outside my main area of interest but just sparked a thought - no doubt you are going to say no RE or Beach Group connection, in which case please excuse the 'Red Herring'

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205195611

Hoping your ankle is healing

Mike

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Mike B

Jon

Many thanks for the clarification.

Pretty sure I saw an image of a smoke Coy wearing a square folded printed Combined Ops patch. I had assumed RE related - but now believe there was a Swaziland connection as attached link. Must say I can not see Combined Ops sign in the link image below but the other image I saw (I think one of Len Whittaker's) was clearly anotated 'Swazi Smoke Company'.

Outside my main area of interest but just sparked a thought - no doubt you are going to say no RE or Beach Group connection, in which case please excuse the 'Red Herring'

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205195611

Hoping your ankle is healing

Mike

Official or not but definitely home-made and worn at Anzio by these Swazi Pioneers (in addition to the more official Eighth Army sign). Mike
Combined Ops_1991 Swazi Smoke Coy_13 Mar 44_Anzio_IWM NA 12864.02.jpg

[Mike B]

Mike
Must admit - not square or printed either - and Pioneers not RE to boot - I have a close example - there are so many of these different C Op badges - but I digress and risk going off thread. Sunshine calls - Los mejores deseos

Mike

[HamandJam]

Hi Mike nice badges you have there I think the beach REME badge is ultra rare. Thanks JB.

Originally Posted by Mike B

There are a number of items associated with Beach Groups - but I have not researched which groups wore what insignia. It was a complex organisation and there are likely to be members of this forum with greater expert than me.

With your Grandfather being a Royal Engineer I doubt he would have worn any of the distinctive 'designation' (shoulder titles) illustrated here which were for Signals, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (REME), and Ordnance personnel respectively. The Beach Group badge (first badge illustrated) was more generic however.

Rob has pointed you in the right direction for Royal Engineer (RE) insignia. I note you say his rank was Sapper - insignia would be different for an Officer

Just for information - I also attach images of a pair of Combined Operations badges - associated with some members of beach groups - However possibly not your grandfather (I have not checked if his formation had a Combined Operations connection - although some RE units in Italy did)

I hope this helps, rather than confuses - and have my fingers crossed that some one more expert on the subject than me could clarify things further

Mike


This message crossed with Mike Jackson's - he is certainly more expert on the subject than me.

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by HamandJam

Hi Mike nice badges you have there I think the beach REME badge is ultra rare. Thanks JB.

You may have to take my word for it, but one of these soldiers (in an excellent image - Sword Beach, 6 Jun 44) is wearing the title BEACH REME. Mike

Beach Group_CB5094 BEME Sword Beach 6June1944.jpgBeach Group_CB5094 Beach REME Sword Beach 6June1944.01.jpg

[blackpowder44]

Beach REME sewn onto a VAD sleeping bag, beach Sigs.

[Cam_s]

So back to my original question but it is safe to say that he would have work Royal Engineers Shoulder titles and possibly a 8th Army patch??

Thanks,

Cam

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Cam_s

So back to my original question but it is safe to say that he would have work Royal Engineers Shoulder titles and possibly a 8th Army patch??

Thanks,

Cam

I think that it rather depends on the history of 102nd Army Field Company RE. If prior to Sicily the unit had been serving for years in the Middle East it is unlikely that cloth insignia other than a formation sign (probably Eighth Army)will have been worn on BD or KD. If on the other hand 102nd Army Field Company RE had been a First Army unit their BD blouses will probably have been badged to UK standards - ie cloth shoulder titles, arm of service strips and formation signs. Most First Army units deployed to Algeria/Tunisia directly from UK, not via the Middle East. As a result they were, compared to Eighth Army units, quite formally dressed. This doesn't answer your question, but it adds background. The only definitive answer will be to find images of either 3 Beach Group or 102nd Army Field Company RE. Mike