Militia or Territorial

[Peter Brydon]

I have acquired this helmet plate today which I am pleased with, it had passed through Bosleys auction in 2008 when it was described as a Militia item.

Nothing would please me more it it was a militia item, but I do have some doubts. The kings crown dates the plate to post 1901 and the Museum have a militia officers tunic with silver, gilt and enamel rose collars ( as well as gold lace and gilt buttons ) which would date the tunic pre 1894 which suggests the militia battalions were then wearing similar uniforms to the regular battalions.

Forgetting reversed metals insignia, all white metal badges to some regiments are attributed to militia battalions, does anyone have evidence of the dates that insignia. the same as that worn by a regiments regular battalions but in all white metal, was worn by a Regiments Militia battalions ?

I think I have obtained a late helmet plate to one of the Kings Liverpools territorial battalions (7th or 9th ) but I would be happy to be proved wrong.
P.B.

[manchesters]

Peter,

I assume its the one off ebay that was on a helmet.
I saw it but cant remember much about it.

What i am getting at is, what colour were the helmet fittings, gilt or white metal?

regards

[Peter Brydon]

Simon,

The seller on E bay had put it on a helmet which was a relic and did not have any fittings, when the plate was sold by Bosleys in 2008 it was by itself.

I have seen an all white metal Manchester helmet plate centre ( with attached Crown ? ) that was described as a Militia item, do you have any thoughts on that, I think it is on one of the better dealers websites.

Peter

[manchesters]

Peter,

Oh I see, well no pointers there then.

I have both QVC & KC Officers Helmet plates to the Manchester Regiment and they are indeed in reversed metals.

They are WM, but have a Gilt centre piece and Gilt bottom regimental title scroll.

Yours being all WM does create a puzzle.

If it was Manchester Regiment I would rule out a TF connection as they should be Gilt like the regular Bn.'s.

However I note you think it may be attributable to the 7th or 9th Kings, which from memory wore WM cap badges and so why not wear WM helmet plates - it makes sense.

I think you are probably correct.

(PS - what happened to the Shako he had?)

regards

[Peter Brydon]

Dress Regulations 1900 para 803 which deals with Militia Battalions says that "Uniform and horse furniture as for the Territorial Regiments of which they form part........."

Does that mean the uniforms ( and presumably the insignia ) of the Militia Battalions to be identical to those of the Regular Battalions, or of the same design with possible differences in metals ?

P.B.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

Dress Regulations 1900 para 803 which deals with Militia Battalions says that "Uniform and horse furniture as for the Territorial Regiments of which they form part........."

Does that mean the uniforms ( and presumably the insignia ) of the Militia Battalions to be identical to those of the Regular Battalions, or of the same design with possible differences in metals ?

P.B.

I think it means as per your latter option, Peter, and that the centre motif/device and title scroll were usually reversed for militia. Simon's suggestion of 7th/9th battalion seems the most likely to me and, may date from the interim period 1902 to 1908.

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I think it means as per your latter option, Peter, and that the centre motif/device and title scroll were usually reversed for militia. Simon's suggestion of 6th/7th battalion seems the most likely to me and, may date from the interim period 1902 to 1908.

Toby,

I actually said 7th or 9th (TF) Bn,'s - post 1908.

regards

[Peter Brydon]

As I did in my original post:

I think I have obtained a late helmet plate to one of the Kings Liverpools territorial battalions (7th or 9th ) but I would be happy to be proved wrong.

Peter

[Peter Brydon]

Just to add to the above, there was an article on badges on the Regiment in The Kingsman magazine of 1929.

The officers helmet plate with the scrolls "The Liverpool Regiment" ( fig 8 ) was worn ( according to the article from 1903 to 1911.

The officers helmet plate with the scrolls "The Kings Regiment " (fig 9 ), again according to the article was worn from 1911 to 1914.

There is a note (3) "The official Officers helmet plate 1911 was as No.8 with the addition of a silver scroll between the crown and garter with the words "The Kings "

Another note (2) says items 6.7.8 and 9 were worn by the 1st and 2nd Battalions and by the 3rd and 4th militia battalions.

whilst articles such as these are very helpful being written near the time that the badges were worn, they do themselves raise a number of queries such as was badge 9 regarded as an unofficial item ? Was 1903 the date that there was a change of crown on the officers helmet plates within the Regiment ?Where the badges worn by the regular and militia battalions the same in every respect ?

I suppose that when the jigsaw is complete some of the interest might be lost.

P.B.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by manchesters

Toby,

I actually said 7th or 9th (TF) Bn,'s - post 1908.

regards

Sorry Simon, a 'senior moment' that came with trying to text on a moving bus. I have amended.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

Just to add to the above, there was an article on badges on the Regiment in The Kingsman magazine of 1929.

The officers helmet plate with the scrolls "The Liverpool Regiment" ( fig 8 ) was worn ( according to the article from 1903 to 1911.

The officers helmet plate with the scrolls "The Kings Regiment " (fig 9 ), again according to the article was worn from 1911 to 1914.

There is a note (3) "The official Officers helmet plate 1911 was as No.8 with the addition of a silver scroll between the crown and garter with the words "The Kings "

Another note (2) says items 6.7.8 and 9 were worn by the 1st and 2nd Battalions and by the 3rd and 4th militia battalions.

whilst articles such as these are very helpful being written near the time that the badges were worn, they do themselves raise a number of queries such as was badge 9 regarded as an unofficial item ? Was 1903 the date that there was a change of crown on the officers helmet plates within the Regiment ?Where the badges worn by the regular and militia battalions the same in every respect ?

I suppose that when the jigsaw is complete some of the interest might be lost.

P.B.

It seems to me then that fig 8 supports the hypotheses that your star is probably safely attributed to the 7th/9th battalions BUT in their former guise as VBs?

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

It seems to me then that fig 8 supports the hypotheses that your star is probably safely attributed to the 7th/9th battalions BUT in their former guise as VBs?

I dont think so, as it would have a smaller VB scroll below the Liverpool Regiment, thats why we are saying post 1908.

regards

[Peter Brydon]

As Simon says the V.B. officers helmet plates ( at least for the 3rd, 4th and 6th V.B.s of the KLR ) had an additional scroll with the battalion title below the Liverpool Regiment scroll as shown in the attached pictures.

(One helmet plate for the 6th V.B- last picture, has the horse and scrolls in gilt and the remainder in silver, I have always presumed, but cannot be certain, that this was senior officers plate,perhaps the C.O.`s ).

P.B.

[Toby Purcell]

Thank you both, that all makes sense and I do recall now that you mention it that both, helmet plates and field/forage cap badges invariably had the small, extra scrolls making clear their VB status.
All-in-all then Peter, your process of elimination seems to lead you to a sensible conclusion.