Why stamp the obscured part?

[Phil2M]

Interesting stuff, Andy, will have to read through again and digest it a bit. I am sure that this will keep Jelly and I up all night again.

[Jelly Terror]

Nozzer,

Thanks for taking the time to post your badges and share your thoughts on this.

Originally Posted by Nozzer

(A)

Jelly,

Let me put another perspective on this. I have a small interest in badges to the Norfolk Regiment and your question has got me to look at the badges I have.

I will do this over a couple of posts, so please bear with me.

Below is the most common Norfolk 1916 all GM badge you will find compared against it's BM version.

As you will notice, the BM version has the details stamped on the reverse. To confuse maters more, the Victorian/Edwardian version has the same features. Now, this can possibly be answered by the existence of a WM lugged version which I have not positively managed to pin down to a particular unit yet.

(A) All fairly straight forward for these examples. Nothing contesting the theory at this point.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Nozzer

(B)

Here is the second 1916 all GM issue which is slightly less common.

However, this time the BM version is blank on the reverse of the scroll.

(B) I'm going to propose with all due respect, that this observation is not as water-tight as it might at first appear. If you look closely, there are impressions to the rear of the bi-metal badge which correspond to points on the reverse of the all-G/M version:

Nozzer's Norfolks.jpg


I do not yet have an explanation for how/why there should be a partial impression on the rear of this scroll, but perhaps someone with a better understanding of the stamping process might be able to throw some light on it and offer an explanation for this. Could it perhaps be as Phil speculates in post #17, that the poor definition of the underlying strike may be the result of deliberate grinding to the all-G/M die, the aim of which being to assist in the better placement of the new, overlaid scroll?


-------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Nozzer

(C)

I do have one other 1916 all GM badge (as far as I am aware there are only three versions), but have not been able to positively tie it down to a BM version yet.

Now to really confuse matters, bellow is a WM version. The BM version with a shank has faint letering to the reverse, yet the Victorian/Edwardian version is blank.

(C) This is my proposal as to the chronological production of these badges. It may prove not to be correct (it is just a proposal after all) but it might account for the presence and absence of rear impressions:

First: the bi-metal Vic/Edw badge with blank, rear scroll
Vic 1b.jpgVic 1a.jpg

Second: the all-W/M badge with the lettering to the rear of the scroll (who would have worn this badge, by the way?)
WM 1b.jpgWM 1a.jpg

Third: the slidered, bi-metal badge with faint lettering to rear of scroll.
BM 1b.jpgBM 1a.jpg


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Originally Posted by Nozzer

(D)

This version with the shank, again has lettering to the reverse, yet the Victorian/Edawrdian has not.

I have also found this strike in silver plate and what appears to be bronzed GM with lugs that was discussed here

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=56936

Also, please note the difference in braze holes.

I hope this is of some help?

(D) Anomalous bronzed all-G/M badge notwithstanding, I think the badges in this post could perhaps be placed in the same chronological order of manufacture as in point 'C':

First: the bi-metal Vic/Edw badge with blank, rear scroll
1a.jpg1b.jpg

Second: the all-W/M, one-piece badge with the lettering to the rear of the scroll (again, who would have worn this badge?)
2a.jpg2b.jpg

Third: the slidered, bi-metal badge with lettering to rear of scroll.
3a.jpg3b.jpg




My thanks to Nozzer, for his kind permission to reproduce his images within my post.

[Nozzer]

Great stuff JT, keep up the good work.

Just to make things a little more complicated, compare the badges shown in the link below (post #27 of this thread)

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...3&postcount=27

to the two shown below. They all come from the same basic die, except this time we have "2nd V.B" and "4 V.B" in place of "THE"

[Nozzer]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Second: the all-W/M, one-piece badge with the lettering to the rear of the scroll (again, who would have worn this badge?)
Attachment 166963Attachment 166964

Good question. I did send an email to the Norfolk Regiment museum before it closed, but never received a reply.

The badge is in fact silver plated and not W/M

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Nozzer

Great stuff JT, keep up the good work.

Just to make things a little more complicated, compare the badges shown in the link below (post #27 of this thread)

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...3&postcount=27

to the two shown below. They all come from the same basic die, except this time we have "2nd V.B" and "4 V.B" in place of "THE"

The Jelly & Terror Badge Co., has recently acquired new premises in Norwich, and (fortuitously enough) received some very nice orders from the local volunteer battalions.

Messrs. Jelly & Terror suddenly find themselves with a great many badges to produce, and have every intention of completing their orders to as high a standard as possible, and by the agreed deadlines.

The badges the company has been commissioned to manufacture are:

1)
Nozzer Inf 2a.jpg

2)
Nozzer 2VB 1a.jpg

3)
Nozzer 4VB 1a.jpg

Messrs. Jelly & Terror can clearly see that all the badges they need to produce are virtually identical. They match each other in every respect other than a few small differences to the scrolls. Being very business-minded kinds of chaps, they of course wish to keep production costs to a minimum in order to maximise profits. They know that making separate dies for each of these badges will be an expensive and time-consuming exercise, and so they quickly realise that if they can in some way come up with a method of producing all the badges for each of the different units from the same die, not only will they have their orders ready on time, but will build up a strong reputation for being fast, efficient and reliable, and be quids in too.

But those scrolls... they are a real fly in the ointment. How ever will they be able to stamp badges from the same die and produce them with three different types of scroll? It's a problem!

Mr. Jelly says he would like production to centre around one die, possibly with interchangeable scroll sections, and wishes to investigate methods of achieving this.

Mr. Terror says otherwise, arguing that three separate dies may initially take a little longer to produce, and incur a little extra cost, but it would certainly speed up production of the three different types of badges.

They both wonder if there might be a third way...

Looks as though the executive board has a long night ahead deciding on the next step!

[Nozzer]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

The Jelly & Terror Badge Co., has recently acquired new premises in Norwich, and (fortuitously enough) received some very nice orders from the local volunteer battalions.

Yes, but the well established firm of "Nozzer & Co of Ware" already have the dies and can confidently undercut you in price and speed

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Nozzer

Yes, but the well established firm of "Nozzer & Co of Ware" already have the dies and can confidently undercut you in price and speed

Unfortunately, being located almost one hundred miles from its new customers in Norfolk, the ignoble Nozzer & Company, has not taken into account the eye-watering shipping costs it will incur after attempting to pull the rug from under the feet of the new kids on the block.

Moreover, in his haste to effect unsportsmanlike one-upmanship tactics over Messrs. Jelly & Terror, Ebeneezer Nozzer (the big enchilada of the firm) has overlooked the fact that as a direct result of his tacky undercutting, profits for his company will now not only be non-existent, but will in fact leave the company’s finances in abject deficit. Having foolishly painted himself into a rather dank and claustrophobic corner, our protagonist must now wrestle with his aged conscience and consider such horrors as pay cuts, potential redundancies and even closures.

But there is hope yet! In an act of mercy, the Jelly & Terror Badge Co (not without compassion) decides to come to the rescue and offers a lifeline, taking up the majority share in Nozzer & Co, thereby allowing the struggling and incontinent company to retain some semblance of self-respect by remaining in operation, albeit under the jackboot benign and avuncular guidance of Messrs. J&T. How very altruistic.

All is well with the world again, and the good people of Ware can breathe easy once more, positively dancing in the cobbled streets, content in the knowledge that old man Nozzer can go on as he always has, funding a nasty Farley’s Rusks habit, listening to his beloved 'Turds of Misery' on his gramophone, and continuing to afford his Mecca Bingo season ticket… for the coming season at least.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Nozzer

Good question. I did send an email to the Norfolk Regiment museum before it closed, but never received a reply.

The badge is in fact silver plated and not W/M

Here's a theory regarding the all-W/M Norfolk Regiment badge which occurred to me after recently reading a passage in Westlake's 'The Territorials 1908-1914'...

IMG_1629.JPG

...I'd be interested to have members' views:

A distinction of the TF (because of their Volunteer origins) was that they should have silver or W/M lace and badges in place of any that were gold or G/M in the Regular Army.

However, because this might single TF men out as being anything less than as good as Regulars, the practice was not popular with many men/units of the TF.

Since this was seen also as likely to affect recruitment, the WO made provisions in TF regulations for any unit that wanted to, to adopt G/M badges in place of W/M, though permission had to be sought through its county TF Association.

Apparently, many units (but not all) applied, and every one that did, was successful in their application.

This may mean that the all-W/M Norfolk Regiment badge was the version originally manufactured and intended for use by Norfolk TF units, and might also explain the W/M or plated badges we see to other TF units, so often attributed to being possibly for bandsmen etc.

JT

[Alan O]

A good point. You get the added complexity of units wearing both. Recent examination of 8th Hants show that the TF wore w/m in Number 1 order of dress and black in khaki. This presumably continued until No1 dress was withdrawn. Bandsmen would have retained it when the majority of wearers were in khaki.

That's before you start looking at what was militia w/m or un-named VB Bn badges such as the all w/m Queens' VB badge.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Alan O

A good point. You get the added complexity of units wearing both. Recent examination of 8th Hants show that the TF wore w/m in Number 1 order of dress and black in khaki. This presumably continued until No1 dress was withdrawn. Bandsmen would have retained it when the majority of wearers were in khaki.

That's before you start looking at what was militia w/m or un-named VB Bn badges such as the all w/m Queens' VB badge.

I'm wondering also if having loops might add more credence to the theory; possibly placing this particular badge at the earlier end of the TF timeline.

JT

[Jelly Terror]

I wonder if I might have overlooked one very obvious possibility here. Given the cessation of the production of all-G/M badges in 1919 (please note that I refer here only to those badges that were previously produced in bi-metal), and the large amount of stock which remained unused/unissued, could it be that some manufacturers simply adapted their excess all-G/M stock, by applying (in the case of the Queen's, for example) white metal scrolls directly on top of the unsupplied all-G/M badges?

This would provide one explanation as to why we see badges to regiments such as this in bi-metal, with perfectly stamped G/M sections behind the W/M scrolls.

L4.jpgL2.jpg
L3.jpgL1.jpg

If the white-metal scroll were to be removed from the badge in the pictures above, it would reveal an all-G/M badge beneath (as in the example below):

L6.jpgL5.jpg