Victorian Cameron Highlanders?

[MarkMcM]

Hello All,

Am wondering if it’s possible to distinguish between a Victorian period Cameron badge and one made say, circa 1914? Any give-away characteristics?

[leigh kitchen]

The Victorian era badge lacked the "CAMERON" scroll, I believe Gaylor states that the pattern with the scroll dates from 1910, but that the original pattern continued in use for some time.
Others will know the ins and outs of this one in terms of specific dates etc.

[MarkMcM]

Thanks Leigh, that’s perfect. The date for the scroll addition is exactly the thing Im trying to pin down!

[leigh kitchen]

I cant be specific re the date, I just seem to recall Gaylor stating 1910, though I suspect those with more expertise in Cameron matters may say the old pattern lingered into or past WWI.

[magpie]

Like a few others I suppose I've just read it, sealed 1897 issued 1912?, orasot and I bought most of a boer war collection on boards a few years ago with the youngest badge being 1902-3 and no slidered badges among them if I recall correctly, the camerons badge is of the scroll type, I'd just like to know if the 1912 date is correct or if they were first issued with all the other 1897 cap badges.

[Paul Spellman]

Mark,
Here is a nice early Glengarry with the scrolless badge, I only found early pre 1897 images of the Pipes and Drums wearing this but haven’t looked for some time.
Paul

[Alan O]

The scrolless one was officially obsolete in 1897 when the new scrolled version was sealed. With the usual principle of old stock being used up and 'old-sweat' attachment to the old pattern it remained in use for some years. However dating the changeover to a single year is problematic and 1910 seems far too late. There was more than one battalion and you can be sure that both were worn side by side for some years. However recruits would have been furnished a scrolled badge at depot much earlier.

[MarkMcM]

Thanks for all the responses, gentlemen! This is all excellent stuff! Now is there any way to determine early issue scroll badges?

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by Alan O

The scrolless one was officially obsolete in 1897 when the new scrolled version was sealed. With the usual principle of old stock being used up and 'old-sweat' attachment to the old pattern it remained in use for some years. However dating the changeover to a single year is problematic and 1910 seems far too late. There was more than one battalion and you can be sure that both were worn side by side for some years. However recruits would have been furnished a scrolled badge at depot much earlier.

I think it was Gaylor mentioned a scrolless badge being worn by an officer when the Camerons were amalgamated into the Q o Hlndrs, but then that's rather different to an OR getting away with it.

[Alan O]

Most probable. In a similar vein whilst in Cyprus in Episkopi Garrison in 1996-7 the KOSB officers took advantage of cheap Cypriot silversmiths and commissioned QVC KOSB bonnet badges that were still being worn on amalgamation.

[fougasse1940]

Major Charles Mackenzie, GSO 1 (Operations) in 1944 at Arnhem wore his grandfathers silver scrollless badge on his maroon beret on a Mackenzie tartan backing. His beret, with badge, was donated at the behest of Major general Roy Urquhart to the Airborne Museum Hartenstein and is currently on display.

See also here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...ers-cap-badge/

"The scroll was indeed added in 1897 (see p 101-102 of Bloomer Badges of the Highland and Lowland Regiments). The scroll was added unilaterally by a storeman without the concurrence of the regiment and to their chagrin; allegedly this was done to remind the storemen to which regiment the badge belonged. Consequently, after the scrolled version came into use the old version was much more cherished by those soldiers fortunate enough to own them.
The sealed pattern for this scrolled badge was dated 1897 but an account from the Regiment contends that it was first issued in 1912."

Rgds, Thomas

[Paul Spellman]

Well a very interesting thread particularly with the links that have to be read through
The Cameron Highlanders were unique in having only one regular Battalion when formed c.1881
I’m sure any old sweats of the 79th other than any Mash B’Stards serving with them would have been proud to have the addition of Cameron’s (as from whom originally raised) put on the badge wether by a storeman with REME skills or officially
Paul

[MarkMcM]

I wonder if this is a case of the devil being in the details (or St Andrew, more appropriately). This particular example is extremely fine in detail and execution. Might it be indicative of an early issue?

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by MarkMcM

I wonder if this is a case of the devil being in the details (or St Andrew, more appropriately). This particular example is extremely fine in detail and execution. Might it be indicative of an early issue?

That is a quality looking badge, could well be Victorian.
Andy

[MarkMcM]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

That is a quality looking badge, could well be Victorian.
Andy

Thanks Andy, agreed. Here’s the overall: