Gaunt Buttons

[GTB]

Going piecemeal and at random through my buttons, have turned up further data consisting entirely of unflawed lettering and no greenish hues. I think this thread exercise needs to be condensed into a database for the Gaunt London backmark.

RAPC, QC, off gilt spunback, 19mm
RAOC. KC, O/R, 26mm -1949 pattern adopted & sealed Sept 1950
RAF KC a/a, QC g/m, QC a/a convex, QC a/a domed (all large size)

GTB

[Rob Miller]

Here are two more of mine, the 27th Lancers came from the Museum Shop and I would have cleaned it in my youth, it has quite a good back mark.

I can't remember where I bought the DCLI, but it does have the greenish tinge and missing bits of the "G" and "T", Ripley has this button as worn until 1947 so it couldn't be right by way of not reaching 1949.

Rob

[Rob Miller]

Here is the DCLI again with a genuine earlier Gaunt version, interestingly with the pressed rim around the edge, so this is not a restrike of this button.

Rob

[davidwyke]

Hi Chaps

Just a few quick points re the above posts.

GTB - I hope your 9L is a genuine Officers private purchase from the 1950's as it would probably make my 17/21L and a few others genuine also. Sorry to say I still have my doubts about them though. We will have to disagree on this as it's unlikely to be proven one way or the other.

As regards a database of buttons with "Gaunt London" backmark - a HUGE task. You are talking about virtually every large size button (metal & anodised) which Gaunts produced from the late 1940's onwards. In addition some smaller sizes from a much longer period. I have hundreds in my collection, as I suspect Roger and other collectors will have. A database of known restrikes with that backmark would be better but we are never going to agree 100% on them.

Rob - as you say, the 27L & the first DCLI are definite restrikes. It's ironic that the 27L buttons are actually quite good quality, the restrike I have is identical to yours but with the original shiny finish. The 2nd DCLI is genuine without doubt.

Incidentally, I've always avoided buying the restrikes. The few I have came in bulk lots of buttons which I've purchased over the years.

David

[Rob Miller]

Is there any actual evidence yet that these "Gaunt London" buttons are restrikes rather than fakes?

And I wonder if there is another possibility with these "Gaunt London" buttons, all through the twentieth century companies were buying each other out, so is it possible that Gaunt obtained dies or a quantity of all ready pressed button fronts from another company and finished them off?

Rob

[davidwyke]

Hi Rob

I would say that they are restrikes rather than fakes as such. They appear to have been struck from the original dies so that would be my definition of restrike. I would say a fake would be struck from new and unofficially manufactured dies.

They wouldn't need to obtain and use other companies' dies as they already had dies for the restrike buttons, they must have as they produced originals of all the buttons!

David

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by GTB

I absolutely concur with David's and Roger's reasoning.
I always accepted the RDF as a restrike and the QC gilt examples mentioned, as being authentic.
I see nothing wrong with Gaunt's producing both authentic current-use buttons along with restrikes of older buttons for the market. The former would be high quality authentic items for contemporary wear and the latter also high quality restrikes acknowledged as such, for collectors, re-enactors or even potential museum copies. Thereby, I can see an admixture of both pristine and flawed lettering, as well as normal and tinted (greenish hue) backs, being turned out concurrently. And so everything falls into place (for me at least).

GTB

Hi GTB

I can see your logic here re restrikes but I've never seen anything to suggest that Gaunts were really involved in the production of restrike buttons..

Going back to earlier posts - the info I have may be incorrect but it did come from a very well informed source. Gaunts were not interested in manufacturing restrike buttons as they didn't consider it commercially viable.

The restrikes which are now causing all the confusion were manufactured by Gaunts in response to an order, or more likely a series of orders, from a particular individual. All the buttons thus produced were supplied to and purchased by the person concerned. They were then sold on through postal lists, I believe one relating specifically to buttons and the other a more general militaria list. There is nothing to suggest they were sold as originals. As with the sale of many headdress badges at the time, there were probably no claims made one way or the other. Rob unwittingly provided a clue as to the validity of this information, relating to where he purchased his restrike buttons. The location was not far removed from where the buttons are believed to have been supplied to. You can draw your own conclusions from that!

We are talking aprox 45 years ago as regards the above and the restrike buttons have long since been absorbed into collections and dealers stock. Whether Gaunts went on to produce more restrike buttons I don't know. Maybe Roger or someone else knows. I don't think I've ever seen anything to suggest it though.

David

[GTB]

Re 9QRL: Ripley's line-drawn book only gives a QC a/a version , pre 1960. But we know that a gilt version exists, so possibly the a/a is O/Rs.
Worth noting that the QC wm cap badge was sealed 9/7/1954. I would expect the other insignia (collars, buttons, etc) to be likewise sealed. I have no dates for the sealing of a/a versions

To keep stirring the soup I have a pre-1926 R Inniskilling Fus (flag to left) 26mm gilt, with defective G and T and greenish hue - identical to my RDF - an obvious restrike.

Although my third button (RHG QC) is identical to the RDF and RInnF, I refuse to accept as a restrike. It is interesting that the RHG QC a/a version has 'FIRMIN LONDON backmark

Ffinally, a gatecrasher: Suffolk & Ipswich Fire Service, chrome,24mm - normal Gaunt London backmark and colour

GTB

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by GTB

Re 9QRL: Ripley's line-drawn book only gives a QC a/a version , pre 1960. But we know that a gilt version exists, so possibly the a/a is O/Rs.
Worth noting that the QC wm cap badge was sealed 9/7/1954. I would expect the other insignia (collars, buttons, etc) to be likewise sealed. I have no dates for the sealing of a/a versions

To keep stirring the soup I have a pre-1926 R Inniskilling Fus (flag to left) 26mm gilt, with defective G and T and greenish hue - identical to my RDF - an obvious restrike.

Although my third button (RHG QC) is identical to the RDF and RInnF, I refuse to accept as a restrike. It is interesting that the RHG QC a/a version has 'FIRMIN LONDON backmark

Ffinally, a gatecrasher: Suffolk & Ipswich Fire Service, chrome,24mm - normal Gaunt London backmark and colour

GTB

Hi GTB

I think we are going around in circles here

As regards 9L - as I mentioned above, the authorised QC buttons - in other words those provided at public expense - were A/A, that applies to both the pre 1960 9L and the post 1960 9/12L. Officers in some regiments could continue to wear gilt buttons, purchased at their own expense. Incidentally QC 9L anodised buttons are very scarce, if not rare, which suggests they didn't change from the KC buttons until shortly before the 1960 merger.

The R Inniskilling Fus you mentioned is another common restrike, from the same stable as RMF, RDF, etc.

David

[Chipper]

Can I just interrupt here for a second:

I have followed this thread with a lot of interest, and have not only learnt plenty about buttons, but also about gentlemanly conduct. It's a credit to all the posters here for engaging in respectful discussions. Even amongst disagreements, the debate has remained civil and anger free.

Bravo.

Cheers, Tim

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by Chipper

Can I just interrupt here for a second:

I have followed this thread with a lot of interest, and have not only learnt plenty about buttons, but also about gentlemanly conduct. It's a credit to all the posters here for engaging in respectful discussions. Even amongst disagreements, the debate has remained civil and anger free.

Bravo.

Cheers, Tim

Button collectors are, of course, gentle souls by nature. Problem is I don't only collect buttons so beware, I might put one of my other hats on!!

David

[Rob Miller]

A couple of points.

If these buttons are restrikes rather than fakes then it should be reasonably easy to prove it by finding two buttons from the same dies with different back marks.

Saying that I don't seem to be able to from my collection and that may be the case with each of us, but we may be able to achieve this by working together?

Secondly this discussion seems to be very similar to the ones about fake Cap Badges with the Gaunt.London mm, can we learn anything from that?

Rob

[davidwyke]

Hi Rob

Yes, that's a good point and something I haven't tried. Will have a go when I get chance, although I don't actually have many of the repro buttons. Obviously, you would have to compare them to original Gaunt buttons. Given the relatively small number of repro buttons produced, it would be surprising if they went to the trouble and expense of manufacturing new dies?

There are certainly comparisons to be made with the Gaunt cap badges although fortunately the buttons are far fewer in number.

"What can we learn from that" - probably that nobody knows everything, that there is room for all opinions and that there are some questions that will never have a definite answer.

David

[Rob Miller]

Hi David

I quite agree.

Here is a possible match. A "Skins" flag right button on ebay with the dodgy mark and one in my collection, are they from the same die? and is the one on ebay good or bad?

Rob

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-RO...QAAOSwL7VWipiX

[Cribyn]

Hello

Just got back from a day shopping (!!) and still trying to digest all the earlier posts.

I would say at this stage that I started collecting military buttons in 1970 and was very soon (within months) warned that there were "restrikes" around made by Gaunt. If they were being called "restrikes" 46 years ago, very near to the time they were produced, then I would suggest that they were known to be such rather than "fakes", if you see what I mean.

I am going to check through a number of my anodised buttons to see what 'Gaunt London' backmarks they have - may take a while though!

Roger