Mottoes?

[Robthereiver]

Hi Dave

Surely, all Lancer & Hussars regt's wore a double stripe? Most did I think in No.1 dress all in Full Dress?
Granted most had double Yellow stripes but as you say the 17/21L wore 'French Grey' which in fairness is the Regiments term for White, and to a layman appears so.

However, the 13/18H and the 3rd Carabineers wore double white stripes also I believe.

Dragoons of course wore a solid stripe in either Red, Yellow or white depending on Regt., with the exception of the Life Guards they have a 'broken' Red one, due to breaking the line at Waterloo? I think??.

Rob

[Dave Alexander]

You're probably right, Rob. I know in the Victorian era many wore double stripes. One of the officers during my time, explaining regtl history, remarked that it was easy to pick out the 17/21L in old photos because they were the only ones with double stripes. During the modern era (if 50 yrs ago is "modern") I can remember only seeing other Regts with single stripes so that probably stuck in my memory.

[Lancer 17]

Originally Posted by Robthereiver

Hi Griff

I thought I would post this image of Cpl. Ruffle. Cyprus c.1970 I think A sqdn was out there then.
Three points of interest:

1) He is wearing the letters PC on his Arm Band which has been confirmed to me by an ex. 17/21 Lancer as Provost Cpl.

2) He is wearing a Chad not a Cap Motto, due to his Rank.

3) He is wearing the arm band on his right arm.

I would suggest that Mr Dawson has made an error in his book as to date I can find no reference/confirmation of the letters PO to have been worn by the 17/21L RP's. This error is understandable as at a glance, at certain angles PC could be mistaken for PO. As is mistaking a Cap Motto for an Arm Motto to the uninitiated.

Also I feel its worth clarifying some terminology.

As far as I can ascertain,in both Infantry Battalions and Cavalry Regiments, the Regt'l Provosts are generally collectively known as the Regimental Police.
However, they are headed by a Provost Sgt. AKA 'The Sheriff' and his right hand man the Provost Cpl. They wear PS & PC respectively on their Arm Bands /Brassards. Other minions wear RP.

Provost Sgt's have been in existance I think since WWI? or soon after and there is usually a section relating to his duties in Regimental Standing orders.
Lastly I would add that the manner in which Provosts wore Brassards/Arm bands seems to change occassionally as did what they wore on them, I suspect due to changes in management eg. CO, Adjt or RSM.

I hope this is of interest.

Rob

G'day Rob

I expect that you have been waiting for me to join this discussion, sorry my computer has been down for about 2 1/2 months and its taking me a while to catch up.

Re the photo of Cpl Ruffle, I have been through my back White Lancers.

I dont have any between June 1969 and 1973, the 74 issue lists him in the Regimental Roll at the back of the mag listed unnder HQ Sqdn in the Provost team.

In 75 also in HQ Sqdn in the Provost team where they are said to be in the "gentle control of Big Dave Ruffle".

In 76 he is listed as being in HQ Sqdn, in the Rear Party in the Provost team.

The 77 White Lancer list Cpl Ruffle as being in the QM depot.

I dont have the photo you have shown above.

In the 77 White Lancer on page 99 there is an artical by HB Duggan, Esq. TD Re his Great Great Grand Father, Patrick Duggan who enlisted in the 17th Lancers in 1821aged 17 years. He served 24 Yrs and 100 days, until 1845, 4 years as a Trooper, 2 yrs as Corpral, 10 yrs as Sergeant and Troop Seg Major, 8 years. he states that he has a number of his papers and his Motto. Illustrated with the artical is what appears to be a silver Chadd of the patern illustrated by Linikar & Dine as 43.1 L & D list the silver sleeve Motto as being sealed in 1863.

On the above figures it would seem that he became a Sergeant about 1827 which is well before the apparent issue of silver sleeve Mottos, it may have been issued before he retired, however it would appear to show the earliest form of the silver Chadd.

The proportions of the Sleeve Motto have always been that they are taller than they are wide. My 43.1 is 43.5 mm high and 40 mm across the bones. The bones are always double bones without the second knuckle and the scroll ends are swallow tailed. This Chadd is cast unmarked silver.

With cap Mottoes the earliest use of the basic current design is on the 4 honour helmet plate, I have a 4 honour plate that dates from C 1856 (pre Indian Mutiny). This has the basic form although there are minor differences, there are no second knuckles on the bones, however the bones are single bones with divided ends, the width across the top bones is 38mm and the over all height is 34 mm, the scroll ends are flat.

Therefore from the above it can be seen that the basic mesurements and shapes for the Chadd and cap Motto were determined in the 1840's or 1850's.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

Phil.
.

[GriffMJ]

Just an update to the "Provost Corporal" mentioned in the thread.

Here is an image from the 17th/21st Lancers in Hong Kong (Sek Kong) in the 1960s. The Provost Corporal, his Lance Jack and Driver.... a Motto worn on the arm band and not a chad.

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Just an update to the "Provost Corporal" mentioned in the thread.

Here is an image from the 17th/21st Lancers in Hong Kong (Sek Kong) in the 1960s. The Provost Corporal, his Lance Jack and Driver.... a Motto worn on the arm band and not a chad.

Griff

Interesting images, thank you for posting them.

The brassards on both these Provost are being worn on the left arm, where as Cpl Ruffle is wearing his on the right.

I'd suggest this is the reasoning/deciding factor behind either wearing an Arm Motto (Chad) or a Cap Motto by provost nco's.

If you were a Provost Cpl. or Sgt., it would neither be traditionally or regimentally correct to wear an Arm Motto on both your right arm Chevrons and on a brassard on your left arm. Hence the cap motto being worn in your photo.

It is also interesting to note that the QRL provost initially wore Cap motto's on their Brassards, on the left sleeve. (ref: Regiment Magazine issue 20 QRL).

Regards Rob

[mac mcconnell]

As Rob pointed out a few posts back there are many different types of RP arm band. I can see the Sherriff and his deputy wearing chads while the others just get the Motto. Issue 20 of Regiment is QRL UP TO 1997. There were other types of armbadge (motto) trailed for provo . A big change in dress happened around 2000 while WO1 Sterling was in the chair , we lost the lower arm Chad and gained the new bullion motto with cross Lancers and the 21st cypher came back and I am sure the provo also moved to the new bullion style, they did trial a metal one as well I believe over the period 1993 - 2002 two styles were looked at.

Rgs Mac

[Lancer 17]

G'day Griff, Mac, Rob and all.

What I didnt say in my post above is that the Chadd is first illustrated in The Historical Record of the 17th Lancers by Richard Cannon dated 1841. On the frontice page there is a line drawing of the Chadd that is as good as identical to that shown by Linikar & Dine as 43.1. This Chadd is 38mm high and 35mm across the lower bones. The scroll has swallow tailed ends.

Under the Chadd is the wording, The Seventeenth Lancers / bear on their appointments, as a / regimental badge, / "Deaths Head"/ with the motto / "Or Glory".

This would suggest that the Motto in the Chadd's form has been in use from at least 1841, therefore the form of the Chadd pre dates the form of the hat / cap Motto by many years. Allowing that hat/cap Mottoes did not come into use until c1896.

Allowing that the Mottos on czapka plates are much larger than hat/cap Mottoes as we know them, where as the Chadd stayed almost the same in form up until the white metal Chadds were recently replaced by the bullion embroidered ones.

By my reading this may make the Chadd the longest surviving badge in the British army. There is clear evidence that the Chadd was worn for many years before the 1863 sealed pattern was issued, as many of the Crimea vintage veterans are seen in photographs wearing their Crimea medal suspended from their Chadd. This can be seen in Honour the Light Brigade by Cannon Lumis and Griff has one in one of his albums. It is also shown in The White Lancer and The Vedette of 1981 (p 81 & 2) and 1982 (P 125, that also shows the illustration from Cannon's History.

Regards

Phil.

[GriffMJ]

Phil

Can you scan some of the info and send it ...... illustrations etc

[Lancer 17]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Phil

Can you scan some of the info and send it ...... illustrations etc

Hi Griff, of course, but thats tomorrrow Sunday as its now 12.30 am, have just finnished watching James Bond and now off to bed. Talk to you later.

Cheers

Phil.

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by Lancer 17

G'day Griff, Mac, Rob and all.

What I didnt say in my post above is that the Chadd is first illustrated in The Historical Record of the 17th Lancers by Richard Cannon dated 1841. On the frontice page there is a line drawing of the Chadd that is as good as identical to that shown by Linikar & Dine as 43.1. This Chadd is 38mm high and 35mm across the lower bones. The scroll has swallow tailed ends.

Under the Chadd is the wording, The Seventeenth Lancers / bear on their appointments, as a / regimental badge, / "Deaths Head"/ with the motto / "Or Glory".

This would suggest that the Motto in the Chadd's form has been in use from at least 1841, therefore the form of the Chadd pre dates the form of the hat / cap Motto by many years. Allowing that hat/cap Mottoes did not come into use until c1896.

Allowing that the Mottos on czapka plates are much larger than hat/cap Mottoes as we know them, where as the Chadd stayed almost the same in form up until the white metal Chadds were recently replaced by the bullion embroidered ones.

By my reading this may make the Chadd the longest surviving badge in the British army. There is clear evidence that the Chadd was worn for many years before the 1863 sealed pattern was issued, as many of the Crimea vintage veterans are seen in photographs wearing their Crimea medal suspended from their Chadd. This can be seen in Honour the Light Brigade by Cannon Lumis and Griff has one in one of his albums. It is also shown in The White Lancer and The Vedette of 1981 (p 81 & 2) and 1982 (P 125, that also shows the illustration from Cannon's History.

Regards

Phil.

Hello Phil

Interesting, thanks for posting your findings, and I have seen the images you refer to in the respective journals.

However, are you aware that this matter is covered in section 43 of Linaker & Dines book, and in fact they consider it possible that the Arm Motto might date back to as early as 1827, interestingly though, it is not thought that the Arm Motto was worn during the Crimea.

Regards
Rob

[Lancer 17]

G'day Rob

Thanks for the update, whilst the Chadd may date from C1826/7 as per L & D, I dont have copies of this info and as I have said previously I only quote what I actually have in my collection or photographic evidance of. In this case I do have a copy of Cannons History. Whilt it is likley that the Chadd was introduced previously rather than at or about the time that Cannon published his History.

However if we were to accept the C1826/7 date that would make the Chadd approaching 200 years old. Thats got to be good news.

Cheers

Phil.

[Robthereiver]

Phil

Are you saying you haven't a copy of L&D? or just the references they have referred to?, which prompt their suggestion of c1826, as a possible earlier date that the wear of the Arm Motto might have commenced?

Rob

[Lancer 17]

Originally Posted by Robthereiver

Phil

Are you saying you haven't a copy of L&D? or just the references they have referred to?, which prompt their suggestion of c1826, as a possible earlier date that the wear of the Arm Motto might have commenced?

Rob

Hi Rob

Yes I do have a copy of L & D but not the 1826 document referred to in L & D. I also have a 43.1 as per L & D, its die cast unmarked silver with a concave back and weighs 30 grams (I had the chemist weigh it for me).

Cheers

Phil.