RMLI Officer Khaki Service Dress Cap Badge 1918-23

[Paddy]

Hello All

I have just picked up the small bugle horn badge pictured below. It came with a small group of Yeomanry "copies" (this was the only genuine badge in the group) and it was described as a Sherwood Rangers Yeo cap badge. I know this pattern of badge was worn as a collar badge but never seen it mentioned as being worn as a cap badge. The fact that it has blades makes me think it is cap as opposed to collar. The reason I bought it is that I think it was wrongly described and I think it is the upper part of a RMLI Officer's Khaki Service Dress Cap Badge (1918-23). I have attached 2 links, the first shows a 2 part badge sold on Buywyze which is exactly the same pattern as the one I have and it says both parts are on blades. The 2nd one is a RM website, the badge is on page 9, and it attributes the badge to the RM Museum, the badge is slightly different but very similar. The main difference in the 2 badges in the links is that the Buywyze badge lower part is a collar size badge with single leaf endings and the RM Museum badge is a cap size badge with double leaf endings.

My questions are:-

Did the Sherwood Rangers Yeo wear this style of badge in any form of headgear?

Which badge is the correct style, the one sold by Buywyze or the one from the RM Museum or are they both correct?

Does anyone have pictures of a known genuine version of this badge?

http://www.buywyze.com/viewphoto.php...1019225&phqu=0

http://www.rmhistorical.com/images/Cap%20Badges.pdf

Many thanks in advance

Paddy

[Rockape]

Hi Paddy,

I can only speak on behalf of the vendor claim to be SRY: The small bugle was worn by officers on the FSC and I've seen examples in gilt and brass. However, the detail on the SRY badge is different to yours (tassels and detail on bugle), so it is unlikely to be SRY.

I cannot comment on RM badges though as it's not my field of collecting. But I can say that the badge that purports to be an officer type (blades) lacks quality that you find in other officer quality badges.

Cheers,

Gar

[Paddy]

Originally Posted by Rockape

Hi Paddy,

I can only speak on behalf of the vendor claim to be SRY: The small bugle was worn by officers on the FSC and I've seen examples in gilt and brass. However, the detail on the SRY badge is different to yours (tassels and detail on bugle), so it is unlikely to be SRY.

I cannot comment on RM badges though as it's not my field of collecting. But I can say that the badge that purports to be an officer type (blades) lacks quality that you find in other officer quality badges.

Cheers,

Gar

Gar

Many thanks for your comments, when you speak of the badge that purports to be an officer's badge do you mean the Buywyze one or the one I have pictured? The one I have pictured looks like it was originally bronzed but has lost a lot of it's bronzing, the main thing with the detail on the bugle that I have noticed is that the SRY badge has 3 narrow rings (vertical lines) at the 6 o'clock position but the one I have pictured has 2 narrow with a thick one in the middle.

Paddy

[albert gunter]

Hi Paddy, just seen your message "small bugle horn" Several things, first it isn't the small horn worn by Officers. Second, I don't think it is R.M. I have several versions of these for both S.N.C.O and ordinary ranks that size. Officers are much smaller and was worn above the ordinary globe and laurel (as today's collars) for khaki battledress They come gilded brass and bronze versions. Also for officers they came in "Bullion version" worn above the bullion globe and laurel, bullion bugle horn as today's bugle major's arm badge. The main difference between light infantry and R.M. is the bugle cord itself. Yours is like a ribbon whereas the R.M. is a proper bugle cord. Hope that helps a little. I don't know how to post pictures, otherwise I would give you a better look at a few.
Sticks.R.M.

[albert gunter]

SORRY PADDY, SHOULD READ KHAKI SERVICE DRESS, NOT KHAKI BATTLEDRESS.
SENIOR MOMENT. Sticks R.M.

[Paddy]

Originally Posted by albert gunter

Hi Paddy, just seen your message "small bugle horn" Several things, first it isn't the small horn worn by Officers. Second, I don't think it is R.M. I have several versions of these for both S.N.C.O and ordinary ranks that size. Officers are much smaller and was worn above the ordinary globe and laurel (as today's collars) for khaki battledress They come gilded brass and bronze versions. Also for officers they came in "Bullion version" worn above the bullion globe and laurel, bullion bugle horn as today's bugle major's arm badge. The main difference between light infantry and R.M. is the bugle cord itself. Yours is like a ribbon whereas the R.M. is a proper bugle cord. Hope that helps a little. I don't know how to post pictures, otherwise I would give you a better look at a few.
Sticks.R.M.

Sticks

Many thanks for your comments. I agree with a lot that you have mentioned but I am not convinced that the RM were confined to a bugle cord. If you look at the link attached below and scroll to the last few pages you will see that there are 2 caps attributed to the RM Museum (RMLI Staff Officer Forage Cap & RMLI Officer Forage Cap), both these caps have gilt versions of a ribboned bugle horn, identical in pattern to the bugle I pictured above (albeit mine is in bronze), my bronze bugle horn is 27mm wide by 28mm tall. If you go to the Photos section of that RM website and scroll down to the RMLI section there is a picture titled RMLI Colonel Commandants and one titled RMLI Captain, if you zoom in on the bugles you will see that they look to be ribboned (it works better if you save the picture and then expand it than if you zoom in on the site). The majority of the pictures do show "roped" bugle cords or bullion versions but I believe the 2 pictures mentioned and the 2 caps shown attributed to the RM Museum do prove that ribboned versions were worn as well. Also there is a bronze version shown in the cap badge section which is also attributed to the Museum, I have shown a picture of a GM version of this badge below and it is approx. 34mm wide by 30mm tall, also shown a bronze version (damaged tassles) and a few of the typical RMLI bugle horns(are these like the ones you have?).

http://www.rmhistorical.com/images/Cap%20Badges.pdf

http://www.rmhistorical.com/DAPShowF...ocation=images

http://www.rmhistorical.com/DAPShowF...ocation=images

Paddy

[albert gunter]

Paddy, thank you, you have gone very deep into the bugle horn for R.M.L.I. and I thank you for that. It has opened a new inquiry for me also. As mentioned, I have several, both small and large with bugle cords and whatever the others have, because of you I have had a much closer look at all of mine. One thing I have noted, for instance that the bullion one from around 1870? it is "rope work" but the bugle major of modern times is a sort of "ribbon" So, I have come to my own conclusion, and that is, it is down to the manufacture, and who had the contract for these badges at the time. They could all be R.M's Who really knows today?
Sticks R.M.

[albert gunter]

Hi again Paddy, sorry about this but never finished my message! As already mentioned, I have a lot of these bugle horns in my collection but I do not have one like yours with the fold over lugs. I would very much like to purchase it from you should you wish to sell or part exchange at some time. Regards Sticks R.M.

[Paddy]

Sticks

Many thanks for your comments, I am going into it in a bit of detail because I want to get the correct one for the bullion part of the forage cap I have rather than pair it with the incorrect pattern. Going by the pictures I've seen and a few other things I've checked over the week-end I think the bronze version I have with the blades is the correct pattern for at least one of the types that was used, I just need to find a gilt version of it with lugs. If it is the correct pattern for the forage cap then I think it makes sense that it could also have been used with the Khaki Service Dress Cap as well especially as they were worn around the same time (the question there is was it worn with the large collar size globe & laurel or the small size g&L?)

One of the things I've looked at this week-end is the Autumn 1992 (No 68) edition of the Crown Imperial magazine. In it there is an article by John Atherton on the Royal Marines, there are 2 A4 pages full of pictures of badges, belt buckles etc and 2 A4 pages of text with a brief description of each badge and more importantly it gives the size of the majority of them. For the RMLI Officer's Forage Cap Badge, under a magnifying glass (pictures are black & white and not the best quality) the bugle horn is ribboned and the text states that it is 1" x 1 1/16", it looks like the same pattern as my bladed version and the size is the spot on. Unfortunately the pictures for the metal cap badges add a little confusion, there are 3 different versions. There is a silver and gilt version with a ribboned bugle horn and single leaf ending G&L which looks to be the same size as the large collar badge (not the small size shown on the RM web site), I think this bugle should be approx. 24mm wide by 20mm tall (picture 1 below). The other 2 versions of the badge are bronze, one of them has a bugle which is the same pattern as the 2nd picture I've shown below (I believe this should be approx. 33mm wide by 29mm tall) the G&L is the large size with double leaf ending (just like the one on the RM web site attributed to the RM Museum, may even be the same badge). The 3rd version looks to be a double leaf ending G&L but the bugle horn is smaller than all the others I've mentioned.

As I said earlier, it makes sense that a ribboned bugle horn was used, at least as one of the variants, as the standard RMLI cap badge had a ribboned bugle and the small bugle on the officer's helmet plates is also ribboned.

And finally, sorry but my bladed version is not for sale, it's taken me long enough to find this one but I will keep you in mind if I ever find another.

Paddy