Middlesex Imperial Yeomanry - which metal?

In a recent thread regarding F. E. Woodward badges, and the possibility that this company only ever produced all-brass badges, Tony (Mr. P. Dreary) submitted an image of a Woodward-produced badge to the Middlesex Imperial Yeomanry, which appears to be made of w/m:

MIY 1.jpg

To further muddy the waters, I managed to track down another image of what seems to be a g/m example of the badge:

MIY2.jpg

I am not familiar with this badge and wondered if anyone would know whether it should w/m, g/m or either?

Any assistance very much appreciated.

With thanks,

Peter.

[2747andy]

Peter,
I must admit I overlooked the fact that I had a "Whitemetal" Middx IY. I think both the badges shown above are Wm, one is just a little more grubby than the other! I think only "GvR" variations of the Middx Yeo are in Gm or BB.

Andy

[tonyb]

Hello Peter can't help with your question, but second image looks as though it is a dirty WM badge to me. Though I could be wrong.
Cheers Tony.

Thanks for your replies, gents.

I agree with you both that the badge in the second image could well be w/m - not the best of photos.

Thanks again,

Peter.

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Peter,
I must admit I overlooked the fact that I had a "Whitemetal" Middx IY. I think both the badges shown above are Wm, one is just a little more grubby than the other! I think only "GvR" variations of the Middx Yeo are in Gm or BB.

Andy

Checked K&K, and Gaylor, for the metal variations - here is what they say:

Gaylor:
The badge was an eight-poited star carrying the motto 'Pro Aris et Focis' and the words 'Middlesex Yeomanry' on a circle having in its centre the GRV [sic] Royal Cypher, all in w/m. This pattern also existed in brass. Its successor, with GRVI [sic] cypher, was also in w/m. The pre-1908 badge carried the ERVII [sic] cypher and the additional word 'Imperial' on the central band. It was made both in brass and w/m...

K&K (Figs. 1341 & 1342):
(1) An eight-pointed star, the topmost point displaced by an Imperial crown. In the centre a circlet inscribed 'Pro Aris et Focis' and 'Middlesex Imperial Yeomanry'. Within the circlet the cypher of King Edward VII. In gilt.
(2) Same design as above but without the crown. In white-metal. Also found in gilding-metal.

So safe to conclude then, that Woodward, would have produced g/m versions of this EVIIR badge, and given the Woodward sliders on the w/m examples kindly provided by Tony and Andy, I would very much like to see what other non-g/m Woodward badges might be out there.

Cheers,

Peter.

[Luke H]

Bringing this old thread back to life and off on a slight tangent I think the real question with these F.E. Woodward Middlesex IY’s is rather when were they produced?

The shape and style of slider as well as the mark itself matches those found on Woodward’s WW1 economy issue badges.

Having developed an interest in this maker (thanks to JT’s wonderful albums) I think it’s fair to say their quality isn’t the best and these Middlesex IY badges follow suit. The lettering is not well defined and reverse detail is relatively poor, typical of the maker but not of Edwardian (1901-1910) era badges.

Additionally I know of no other Woodward marked Edwardian era badges and I’ve never seen a badge by that maker that was categorically post WW1. Happy to be corrected here!

We also have photographic evidence that some yeomanry still wore their old IY badges in WW1. I feel this badge is a very strong contender.

Final point is the sheer number of these badges. Practically every dealers site has or had a marked or unmarked Woodward Middlesex IY. No other IY can be picked up so readily? Such numbers would not be quite so surprising though for a WW1 issue badges.

For me I’m convinced this badge by this particular maker is not an Imperial Yeomanry pre 1908 badge but rather a WW1 badge. I’d appreciate members opinions, especially our very own Woodward aficionado

Forgive me if this has been discussed or decided previously, I’m still catching up from my sabbatical.

Cheers,
Luke

[manchesters]

Luke,

You make a very valid point.

I would find it useful to understand the process of manufacture that Woodward undertook. By that I mean the following:-

1. Did they manufacture something entirely different before the war and then after the war, ie - plumbing equipment, bicycles etc?

2. If that was the case how then did they re-tool to make badges? Did they make 'dies' or buy 'dies' from the government or another source. If they made them I cant see them making an IY version. If they were from the original manufacturer why didnt they get the dies that had been in use since 1908?

I dont have a full enough understanding to answer these questions but within the answers may be an explanation as to what happened at Woodwards.

regards

[Luke H]

Simon,

That is exactly the sort of information I’m hoping someone on the forum may possess and be willing to share.

An extension of Ticker Riley’s research through the Board of Trade Labour Gazette to discover ‘War Office’ awards of contracts to listed companies would be most interesting and enlightening for the period pre 1914 and even post 1919.

Perhaps someone can help?

Regards,
Luke