Badge talk

[BILL DUGGAN]

I've been meaning to raise this issue for some time.

As most service personnel know, every item used by M.O.D. has to be approved by a procurement executive.

This includes EVERY item from atom bombs to Waafs bloomers.

Of course this includes badges of every kind.

There is too much talk on this website about forgeries, duds, phonies, etc.

In my mind there is only two types of cap badges.

1) Those that have been procurred and approved and issued to service personnel.

2) Items that have been procurred by a private individual (for a multitude of reasons I can think of) and are not 'approved'

As I've mentioned on this website before, in the 1950's & 60's the best place to buy a cap badge was an Army Surplus Store.

I have peronally seen T-chests full to the brim with (used) surplus army badges of every single regiment.

In places like Aldershot in the 60's you could walk into any one of the dozen or so Army surplus shops and buy ANY cap badge (to replace the one you had nicked in the pub the night before)

Of the two above catagories, my opinion is that catagory 1) overwhelmingly far outweighs catagory 2)

I myself would like to see the odd discussion on the design or type of metal used in badge making, or what the various devises on badges mean.

Every single string rapidly breaks down to 'is it real or a forgery ?'.

There are many facets to our hobby. Lets talk about some of them.

Bill

[Phil2M]

"I myself would like to see the odd discussion on the design or type of metal used in badge making, or what the various devises on badges mean."

Me too

[mule-73k]

Can only educate people. Sounds good to me!

Dave

[Peter Brydon]

Bill,

Whilst I understand where you are coming from, a lot of members of the Forum actually want to know if a badge they own ( or are thinking of buying ) is genuine or not and when it applies to fairly common items I still think they deserve a response if members are prepared to give one.

My person policy is not to comment publicly on the authenticity of badges posted on the Forum for a number or reasons, the principal one being that there is only so much you can tell from even the best photographs but there are other reasons .

One of the fascinations of this hobby is that it is still possible to find previously unrecorded items of insignia and therefore I have to disagree with the notion that there are only the two types of cap badge as set out in your original post. What about theatre made items as just one example.

One good thing about books like the various editions of Gaylors "Military Badge Collecting" is that they do give some sort of explanation of the meaning of various devices found on cap badges. Do we want to be repeating information that is readily available elsewhere ?

I personally find a lot of interesting topics on the Forum that go beyond the "Is it genuine " level, examples being the ongoing threads Lanyards and the "Current Projects " as shown on the top right hand side of the index page. Also some of the threads on "Special Forces Insignia" and "Formation Signs and Patches " have contributions by acknowledged leading experts in those fields with information and illustrations that cannot be found elsewhere.


P.B.

[Alan O]

I would like to see some effort put into expanding the forum's knowledge base rather than repeat second hand stories or repeat what has already been committed to paper. This is what I am currently doing with my OTC and FSH albums. There is at least 2 VTC albums that are top of their game and really add value. Likewise KLR's 1916 economy research has rewritten collector's knowledge.

There is a significant gap in the knowledge of pre 1908 Vb bns which neither Gaylor not K&K do justice to. Perhaps this could be a concerted forum-wide effort to put a Vb album?

[KLR]

Most so called 'reference books' (eg K&K, Gaylor etc etc etc) do not provide anything of the sort - ie a "reference". The primary reference sources for your category 1 are the WO (/ MoD) definitions (I've provided these for 1914 infantry in one of my albums). It should be reiterated that 90% these only deal with OR's badges. They hardly ever detail the exact design - though the 'new' badges of the mid 1890s often have rubbings showing the original (but not exclusive) manufacturer's design (and surviving manufacturers pattern books are very useful too). They do give metals and fixings. The original Sealed Pattern cards are either at the IWM or the NAM. There are some officer's patterns at the latter as well as in the certain regimental museums. Vol and Terr Bn badges are a nightmare as there are very few documented designs - albeit some VBs at TNA WO 359/21. Trawling through WO32 at TNA - where a number of us have looked - you occasionally get lucky.
I make no apology for being a historian and only relying on primary sources - and there is still a vast amount of research to do out there !

[John Mulcahy]

Bill

you are right that there is more to this hobby than identifying fake badges. But, you must accept that for a lot of collectors being able to identify dubious badges is very important. Too much talk of fakes is a relative term, there is as much talk about fakes on this forum as is wanted. Every single string does not break down to talk of fakes - that is too much of a sweeping statement.

I happen to disagree with you that most badges found on the market today are from what you call category 1. I say this in context of the regiments that mostly interest me, pre 1922 Irish regiments.

Like Alan I too like to see some effort put into expanding knowledge with primary references rather than repeat second hand stories or repeat what has already been committed to paper without references.

To that end I have made one of my albums public. This Irish Guards, with the fruits of my own research at the NA and elsewhere. I need to tidy up the references and comments in the coming days.

http://britishbadgeforum.com/forums/...hp?albumid=276

I shall not place photos of the backs in the album but will provide them to PMs.

Note the Pagri stars - the officers badge from official WO records is at odds with what Kipling & King give in their notes on KK 916. For now I believe what the WO records state as K&K give no references at all - primary or otherwise, on this badge.

This forum is all the better for people like you Bill - who have a passion for the hobby.


sincerely


John

[Phillip Herring]

John,
Thank you for making that album public. I've always enjoy specialized collection and your comments on the badges make it a great learning resource.
Thank you again.
Phil

[BILL DUGGAN]

Sand cast in theatre falls into catagory 1) surely.

Not all badges and insignia submitted for procurement are approved of course.

Sometimes an item may get 'knocked back' by a unit even after issue.

The one that comes to mind is the brass East Lancashire Regiment militia badge with a white rose (of Yorkshire) on it.

The idea that there is a small army of forgers at work seems a bit daft and paranoid to my mind.

Bill

[Jibba Jabba]

Sorry Bill, you are behind the times mate. Cap badges are big money now. Wherever there is big money, next to no policing, an element of criminality always creeps in.

Some key people on this forum risk a great deal to discuss fakes and forgeries here. Their friends/families have been harassed by cowards who seek to undermine the hobby for monitory gain. There is no way we should EVER forget their sacrifices to the hobby or devalue their contributions. It is nice to know, that there are at least some selfless people, with some of the balls, of the men who wore the badges they have in their collections..........sadly, I cannot say the same about others, who prefer to turn the blind eye.

It is just as important if not more important in my opinion than the academics. What is academic writing if their is no one interested in reading it? The next generation of collectors must not be discouraged by the dishonest if the hobby is to thrive.

The army of fakers who you think do not exist, are now having their ex merchandise featured on television. It seems to me that when something is worth a 20 minute slot on national television it is indeed a real problem.

[Alan O]

If this forum had been in existence in the 1970s then the fakes would have been identified within days and the sellers driven out of business. The restrike market only grew because of ignorance that allowed dealers to dupe people. It still goes on today but a bad dealer can be 'outed' within hours and days rather than wait for the posting of brass rubbings of badges that Laurie Archie dealt with in the 70's.

[mule-73k]

Originally Posted by Alan O

If this forum had been in existence in the 1970s then the fakes would have been identified within days and the sellers driven out of business. The restrike market only grew because of ignorance that allowed dealers to dupe people. It still goes on today but a bad dealer can be 'outed' within hours and days rather than wait for the posting of brass rubbings of badges that Laurie Archie dealt with in the 70's.

There is another 'type' the faker! There are people who are making and selling badges as copies and I do'nt have a major problem with that if they sell them as such and can be detected as so. But there are thoes who buy these badges and then set about aging them and making them look original. The problem with these badges are that they are not being massed produced and therefore hard to always detect!

Dave

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Alan O

If this forum had been in existence in the 1970s then the fakes would have been identified within days and the sellers driven out of business. The restrike market only grew because of ignorance that allowed dealers to dupe people. It still goes on today but a bad dealer can be 'outed' within hours and days rather than wait for the posting of brass rubbings of badges that Laurie Archie dealt with in the 70's.

Alan,
You are quite right that if this Forum had of been around in the 70s there would not have been so many fakes and copies around today! Publications such as Gaylor would not have contained so much bum information, such as the long list of WW1 all Gm "Economy" badges that is probably twice that of what were actually struck in 1916. Even the more recent books, despite being colourful, well illustrated and sold with the greatest intentions, contain images of fakes and bum info!! What IMO Laurie Archer and many other eminent collectors have done since 1970 is call these fakes "Restrikes", as this term suggests they were struck from the original dies, something I've seen very little evidence of and the biggest majority of the wonky cap badges doing the rounds these days are from purpose made, modern dies which have produced badges that with a little bit of basic research are often not that difficult to spot, even when given the age treatment.

Now is probably the best time ever to start collecting cap badges, as there is so much accurate information available to those who take time to seek it! (Most of it from the pages of this Forum)...

There are still those who like to stick their head in the sand or those who easily tire of the "Newbies" asking the same old basic questions, but I have seen many "New" collectors, amassing collections of entirely genuine badges is a very short space of time, with admittedly the odd hiccup which has been quickly corrected by use of the Forum. I don't always agree with some of the thinking of those older Forum members, but I do agree that the badge collecting world is a better and safer place to be with the Forum, than without it!

Andy

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

Sand cast in theatre falls into catagory 1) surely.

Not all badges and insignia submitted for procurement are approved of course.

Sometimes an item may get 'knocked back' by a unit even after issue.

The one that comes to mind is the brass East Lancashire Regiment militia badge with a white rose (of Yorkshire) on it.

The idea that there is a small army of forgers at work seems a bit daft and paranoid to my mind.

Bill

Bill, can you elaborate a bit more about the East Lancs Militia badge? I have a couple of which I'm happy with? in here

Andy

[Jibba Jabba]

As Alan has pointed out, badge prices from 1970 to 2000 remained almost static thanks to the influx of the restrikes on the market. The invention of forums like this has created renewed and confident interest in the hobby. I am surprised this forum does not have sponsorship from some of the major auction houses because I believe at least some of their profits can be attributed to this forum.

Sophiscated copying methods are what we have to worry about now, which have become economically viable due to the high value of some badges. Example: For 20 thousand pounds you can have a steel die manufactured of a badge......sell each striking from that die for 500 pounds and it is not long before you have your money back.