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#1
26-11-09, 03:57 PM
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(Allegedly) A 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards Shabraque device
This was advertised as the title suggests (the 'Allegedly' is my comment).
A well respected (by me) member (and forum friend) has warned me that:- a) it could be a fake. b) it has been mis-represented and in fact is an Irish Guards 'device'. It is 80mm tip to tip. The outer circle is 35mm in diameter. It has 4 loops (N,S,E,W) - one of these has been crudely soldered. I have enclosed pictures of the front, back and of 2 of the lugs. Note that a picture of the the back/lugs etc was not in my album when the first comment was made. (these do not have any 'feet', but then the fakers may sorted this one out by now). I would welcome any valid comments with regard to a) or b). rgds, david 
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#2
26-11-09, 04:10 PM
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4RIDG?
Hi David
I have one of these as well, but with only 2 lugs on the back, and I'm pretty sure it's the real deal. The only place I have seen one was in the National Army Museum quite a few years ago. It was on the sabretache/pouch on one of the mannequins, but for the life of me I can't remember which regiment it was!!! I didn't have a pen or notebook to write down info that I should have. The only thing I can remember was that I'm sure it was dated 1850's which would pre-date the Irish Guards. Anyway, I hope that is of some use. Cheers, Alex Last edited by Alex Rice; 26-11-09 at 04:12 PM. Reason: More information to add.
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#3
26-11-09, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
david
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#4
26-11-09, 04:33 PM
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Irish Guards ??
Hi David,
Solely from looking in K.& K. I would offer my opinion that it is Irish Guards, this is where reference books with dimensions would serve a very useful purpose, the shape of the badge, I believe, is that of K.& K. 917 ( Puggaree ), described as ' all in bronze ' ?? There you go, I've set myself up to be shot down, nothing new there then ? All the best, Dave. PS, I'm wondering if the four lugs indicate a Valise type badge but all mine are deeper than the width, if you know what I mean !! DC.
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A man is only as tall as the sum of his deeds ! Last edited by davec2; 26-11-09 at 04:36 PM. Reason: PS
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#5
26-11-09, 04:51 PM
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I guess, I may be a little off kilter here ??
I've only just noticed that the Valise badge being offered by a fellow member and the Puggaree badge in K.& K. both have three little crowns inside the Shamrock, plus the Valise badge, is, as I thought, a different shape, sorry David, I guess you are back to square one and I'll shut up !!! Dave. PS. Following my humble admittance that I don't know what I'm talking about, I've just found a couple, similar in design to yours David, being offered on ebay ( I can't understand why some people call it ' evilbay ' and then buy something ?? ), they are both being offered by, in my opinion, sellers of items which are of a dubious background, the one, 370296827472, is described as a Helmet Plate to the Irish Guards ??? no-where near the quality of yours David. DC.
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A man is only as tall as the sum of his deeds ! Last edited by davec2; 26-11-09 at 05:11 PM. Reason: PS
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#6
26-11-09, 10:40 PM
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4DG Undress Sabretache
Hi
The attached article shows the Full dress and Undress sabretache's. Its unfortunately not a good photo but I hope you can see the undress sabretache badge is similiar to David's. I have had one in my collection for many years, it was sold to me as an armbadge which it is clearly not!! It has two lugs east/west and is White Metal not brass!! The killer blow for me is that I believe it should have three crowns in the shamrock (it dosen't) and probably should be silver or silver plate. This badge has always been a bit of a mystery for me and it remains in my collection until someone can tell me definitely its not right! Regards Bob.
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#8
27-11-09, 06:44 AM
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Hi David
I'm not sure how many lugs the badge should have, but like I say, I'm happy with it. It is well made and has some wear from polishing which would be hard to fake. It would be good to get some definite info on it though. Cheers, Alex
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#9
27-11-09, 07:19 AM
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Thanks for all the feedback. This is yet another badge to add to the pile that I will have to take along to the cavalry museum...
Again, many thanks, David
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#10
27-11-09, 07:34 AM
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I believe that this is an Irish Guards Sabretache badge. If real it is extremely rare as the Sabretache was abolished in about 1901 (from memory) thus was in use by the IG for only a year or so.
The source of the data is Mahon's two articles in the regimental journal 1986 & 1987 and the Guards Museum. A caution is that this badge is one of the most reproduced of all badges. It is sold in myriads on e-bay and elsewhere as either an Irish Guards Helmet Plate or a pagri badge - it is neither. There is no such thing as an Irish Guards Helmet Plate and the Pagri star is a very different animal. Bosleys has one of these at the moment - link below. These are highly sought after. http://www.buywyze.com/shop/viewphot...1015491&phqu=0 I do not know anything about sabretache devices so cannot comment on the fittings. It is not an Irish Guards Valise star although the 4 loops are reminiscent of the early valise star fittings . I am traveling at the moment so will post references and material later. John It may well have a 4th D.G. connection , but I have never seen mention of it. It is plausible that the Micks used a 4th DG pattern produced in brass for their sabretache star. The IG were known to use at least two regimental devices used by other regiments in their first years of existence. There was a rush to get uniforms and insignia ready upon announcement of their formation which is well documented. 1) 4th DG officers enameled collar badges were worn by Mick's officers in the mess dress side cap until about 1914/5 according to Mahon when an IG regimental pattern small cap star was introduced. I presume that this is also the date when bronze IG OSD cap stars ceased to be worn (these too are extremely rare) and were replaced by the small silver and enamel cap stars 2) RDF belt supporters were used (with a custom IG locket) in at least one waist belt in the early days of the Micks existance. Last edited by John Mulcahy; 27-11-09 at 08:00 AM. Reason: added postscript
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#11
27-11-09, 07:47 AM
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Found this (should have looked before I typed my first post)
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#12
27-11-09, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
John, What can I say - excuse the pun - 2 gold stars.... Also nice to see the 4RIDG collar. So a leading question now is - how can you tell a repro made from the die that was sold. I assume that if it was a double die i.e. front and back, then the only real way would be via the metal/material used or possibly the type/method of fitting.... Thanks for the info. david
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#13
27-11-09, 09:18 AM
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That particular journal is one I should probably try and get. Can you let me know what issue/year it is? david
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#15
27-11-09, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
I have sharpened it up a little with PSP and in the text it mentions "brass or gilt". It also mentions that the die was sold.... david
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