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  #1  
Old 16-03-17, 07:44 AM
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Default RAF buttons

A representative selection of RAF buttons. The current thread concerning KC a/a cap badge prompted me to have a look-see but nothing doing. Incidentally, the KC a/a buttons are 'Firmin. London' for the large, and 'Gaunt. London' for the small. And thge monogrammed button is, of course, ascribed to Royal Aircraft Factory.

GTB
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  #2  
Old 16-03-17, 07:59 AM
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Hello GTB

A very nice selection of buttons.

I do believe though that the 'RAF' button is actually a Royal Air Force Mess Waiter's button. There has been mention of this on the Forum before I think and someone provided a link which mentioned the appropriate regulations which specified this button as RAF mess waiter.

I'm not sure if this is the link supplied but this site does mention these buttons - http://www.network54.com/Forum/18074...y%27s+Uniform-

Copying part of the text it reads as follows -

"Air Ministry Order 416 of 1921 describes these buttons and authorises them as part of the uniform for Mess Butlers and Mess Waiters........

Summary of the uniforms in the AMO:

Mess Butler:
Day wear: Dark blue lounge suit of civilian pattern, Evening Wear: Dark blue evening suit, civilian model: coat and waistcoat to be fitted with brass buttons with raised initials "R.A.F."

Mess Waiter:
Day Wear: Blue and white striped jean jacket, lounge jacket model and blue and white striped jean waistcoat both with brass buttons with raised initials "R.A.F."

Evening Wear: Dark blue evening coat and trousers (civilian model); blue and white waistcoat (as for day wear): coat and waistcoat to be fitted with brass buttons with raised initials "R.A.F." ".

This does seem to be confirmation that these 'RAF' buttons are Royal Air Force and not Royal Aircraft Factory, Royal Armaments Factory and so on.

Roger
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  #3  
Old 16-03-17, 09:01 AM
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Thanks for that. Roger. I now recall - my memory keeps playing up when I don't have notes around!

I recall reading about the Factory theory from a respected source but again, for the lifo of me I can't remember who or where. I must say, though, that I would have expected the Royal Air Force to have come up with something better for mess wear.

GTB
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  #4  
Old 16-03-17, 09:24 AM
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Hello GTB

I do agree that the buttons are rather uninspiring! When you see some of the designs that the army regiments used for their mess waiter's buttons this hardly compares - a simple 'RAF' didn't require much imagination or thought did it!

Did they not even think of confusion between them and the old Royal Aircraft Factory, although by the time these buttons were introduced it had become the Royal Aircraft Establishment, so I suppose it wasn't an issue.

Roger
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  #5  
Old 16-03-17, 12:43 PM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Are the rope-bordered buttons early (1918 vintage) RAF buttons? Were these the same as the RNAS? I have a couple of old leather buttons like this in my collection.
Cheers,
Alex
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  #6  
Old 16-03-17, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Rice View Post
Are the rope-bordered buttons early (1918 vintage) RAF buttons? Were these the same as the RNAS? I have a couple of old leather buttons like this in my collection.
Cheers,
Alex
Alex,
You beat me to the post as I was just about to make a similar query. Perhaps some member may have documentation concerning description and date of wear of (a) RNAS buttons; (b) early RAF buttons; (c) Fleet Air Arm (WW2).

Interesting that you mention leather buttons. I would ascribe these to Great War period, similar to the leather Royal Arms type.

GTB
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  #7  
Old 16-03-17, 03:24 PM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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I'll try to get some time to photograph them over the weekend if I can.
Cheers,
Alex
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  #8  
Old 16-03-17, 06:07 PM
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Default RAF buttons

Re the RAF buttons with rope borders and the possibility of their being RNAS. The eagle button with a rope border was indeed the button of the Royal Naval Air Service. However, when the Royal Air Force was created in April 1918 there were huge numbers of these buttons in stock so they became the buttons of the new RAF in order to use them up. They continued to use buttons with a rope rim until 1921 when smooth edged buttons were adopted.

Slightly off-topic but relating to the new RAF uniforms introduced at that time is the story of the shade of blue that RAF uniforms are made of. I don't know how true this is but I will relate it anyway. This was apparently the same shade of blue worn by the Preobrajensky Guard in Russia. A large order of material in this colour had been prepared in the UK but had not been sent to Russia before the outbreak of the Russian Revolution in 1917 - after which time it was no longer required. The decision was therefore taken to use the surplus material for the uniforms of the new RAF. Incidentally the uniforms were the same shade of blue as the paste applied by soldiers in the trenches to treat infestations of crabs - which is why the RAF are still known by the other Services as Crabs!

Pete

Last edited by Guzzman; 17-03-17 at 03:49 PM. Reason: Spelling mistake!
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  #9  
Old 16-03-17, 06:45 PM
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Hello Pete

Many thanks for that very interesting post.

Taking it just one stage further, do you know when the Fleet Air Arm started to use the buttons with a roped edge and is there any real difference between the RNAS/early RAF roped edge buttons and the later Fleet Air Arm ones.

Almost all the roped edge eagle buttons that appear on the market are described as First World War Royal Naval Air Service, is this likely to be right?

Roger
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  #10  
Old 16-03-17, 07:24 PM
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Leather RNAS buttons as mentioned in this thread.
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  #11  
Old 17-03-17, 09:02 AM
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I think it may be a step in the right direction to create a database of RNAS/early RAF buttons. I don't envisage anything grandiose and a good startoff could concern the backmarks. In any case, will root out my few bits and post later. This may perhaps help to answer some questions.

GTB
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  #12  
Old 17-03-17, 10:01 AM
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Default RAF buttons

There is no distinction between the RNAS/early-RAF button. They were literally the same button, so it is possible to describe all rope-rim eagle buttons as being RNAS as that is who they were originally made for - who subsequently wore them is another matter! And since the idea was to use up existing stocks of buttons it is highly unlikely that any additional rope-rim buttons were produced between 1918 and 1921. By the time new buttons were required it was felt appropriate to choose a distinctive design for the RAF. It should be remembered that immediately after the end of the First World War the RAF was reduced in size from 22,647 aircraft and just under 291,000 personnel to a mere 12 squadrons. No wonder it took a few years to use up the existing stock of RNAS buttons!

The RAF had no interest in maritime aviation and only took on this role reluctantly. Former RNAS aircrew and ground crews were still very much a part of the RAF, though now going to sea wearing RAF rank and uniforms.

The Fleet Air Arm of the Royal Air Force was formed on 1st April 1924 with five squadrons of aircraft. While the Air Ministry still retained administrative control of the Fleet Air Arm, the Royal Navy and Royal Marines now provided 70% of its pilots and all observers and telegraphist air gunners. Naval officers serving with the Fleet Air Arm (despite naval pilots being legally required to hold commissions in both the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force as only RAF officers were allowed to fly aircraft) wore Royal Navy uniforms with the standard Royal Navy buttons of rope-rim and foul anchor design. RAF officers serving with the Fleet Air Arm wore standard RAF buttons with the plain rim. No distinctive button was ever worn by Royal Navy officers serving in the Fleet Air Arm.

By the late-1930s the feeling was growing that responsibility for naval aviation should be handed back to the Royal Navy. On 24th May 1939 the Fleet Air Arm of the Royal Air Force was disbanded and replaced by the Air Branch of the Royal Navy (though the Fleet Air Arm title was retained unofficially by RN personnel throughout the war). Naval officers serving in the Air Branch continued to wear the standard rope-rim foul anchor design of buttons worn by all other naval officers.

Pete
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  #13  
Old 17-03-17, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btns View Post
Leather RNAS buttons as mentioned in this thread.
any chance of seeing the back, please?
Charlie
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  #14  
Old 17-03-17, 07:42 PM
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By coincidence I stumbled upon an RNAS website and among the photos was one showing a gilt or g/m roped edge crown over eagle (RNAS) button alongside an OSD bz roped edge crown over anchor (RN) button. I took this to mean that both buttons pertained somehow to the RNAS.
I am posting a scan of two OSD bz buttons in line with above descriptions. I have no doubt that they are contemporary with each other and both have identical backmarks (Ed. Stillwell & Son Ltd. London.). I also believe that such buttons would have been worn on khaki/SD buttons. The burning question though is did both pertain to the RNAS, as referred above?
GTB
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  #15  
Old 17-03-17, 11:06 PM
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Default RAF buttons

Serving Royal Navy officers who joined the Royal Naval Air Service retained the crown and foul anchor on their cap badges and buttons instead of wearing the crown and eagle. These officers were relatively few in number and most joined when the RNAS was first established. Officers who directly entered the RNAS wore buttons and cap badges bearing the eagle design and would never have worn the crown and foul anchor design. So both types of button could have been worn by RNAS officers - it simply depended upon whether or not they were a Royal Navy officer prior to joining the RNAS.

Pete
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