Grenadier guards portrait senior warrant officer pre 1936

[JerryBB]

Named photograph of Joseph Nugent Paterson. The dedication on the reverse says he was born in Arbroath in May 1895 and enlisted in Swansea June 12th 1912. He served in WWI with the 1st Bn Grenadier Guards army number 15911 arriving in France 12/11/1914. his MIC also states he was a Lance Sgt and Acting WOII so it seems he was promoted very quickly (unless I have the wrong MIC?, though there is only one Joseph Paterson in the GG during WWI that I can find). He has his WWI trio of medals on his chest and the royal arms badge on his red tunic along with his red sash and his bearskin. A lovely sharp image in the hand. It came framed but the backing card is warped though the picture itself is perfect.

[manchesters]

Lovely photo.

Thought you might like to see the badge he is wearing close up.

This particular one is from my collection and was worn by RSM John Clayton MANT, 3rd Bn. Scots Guards c. 1901 - 1904.

IMHO the greatest badge ever worn in the British Army.

regards

[Roy]

No that IS a badge...!

Nothing shy and reserved about that - what a cracker!

Cheers,

Roy

[JerryBB]

A stunning badge Simon, thanks for showing it in all its glory.

[grumpy]

Yes, it is a lovely badge, and the ONLY Guards rank, skill-at-arms, appointment or trade badge on a scarlet background: all the others are on blue/black*, a unique Foot Guards privilege since c. 1868.

* except sometimes the para wings and commando qualified dagger, which I have seen sometimes without blue backing, a pity.

[manchesters]

Grumpy,

I hadnt ever realised that, thanks.

I recall seeing a WO 1 of one of the Guards in full dress wearing a smaller, normal size Royal Arms badge on the lower right arm. I am unsure whether it was on a red or dark blue backing but I wondered why he wasnt wearing the big badge.

All I could come up with is that he was not an RSM, but had some other WO 1 appointment, Superintending Clerk perhaps?

Am I correct?

regards

[grey_green_acorn]

Here is a recent issue version - compare the quality!

Tim

[Postwarden]

A splendid badge regardless of the uniform on which it is worn.

Shown here worn by RSM Duncan Gibson, 2nd Bn Scots Guards 1953

Jon

[manchesters]

Here is the KC version of mine as worn in the photo, also another I have in different coloured threads.

regards

[Carnforth]

Originally Posted by manchesters

Grumpy,

I hadnt ever realised that, thanks.

I recall seeing a WO 1 of one of the Guards in full dress wearing a smaller, normal size Royal Arms badge on the lower right arm. I am unsure whether it was on a red or dark blue backing but I wondered why he wasnt wearing the big badge.

All I could come up with is that he was not an RSM, but had some other WO 1 appointment, Superintending Clerk perhaps?

Am I correct?

regards

As I understand it, the wearing of the 'dinner plate' badge was confined to RSM's of Guards' battalions (plus of course superintending clerks and London District Garrison Sgt Major, and so on) I don't know whether Depot RSMs also wore the big badge
However, I understand that if a Guards RSM was extra-regimentally employed, for example, RSM of an Army Apprentice School (prior to becoming colleges) he would wear the standard badge.

Edited to add;
Example of Guards WO1(RSM) wearing small badge (photo credit http://www.arborfield-september49ers...nion2003_1.htm)

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by manchesters

Grumpy,

I hadnt ever realised that, thanks.

I recall seeing a WO 1 of one of the Guards in full dress wearing a smaller, normal size Royal Arms badge on the lower right arm. I am unsure whether it was on a red or dark blue backing but I wondered why he wasnt wearing the big badge.

All I could come up with is that he was not an RSM, but had some other WO 1 appointment, Superintending Clerk perhaps?

Am I correct?

regards

Yes, bang on the money. My understanding is that all Guards RSMs wear the Big Badge and continue to wear it even after going on to another appointment [unless, of course, to Garrison SM London District or RMA Sandhurst as Academy SM]. The small Royal Arms worn lower right on scarlet Home Service is for all other WO Class I Foot Guards not appointed RSM, and the most frequent use is/ was as Superintending Clerk. The badge is on dark blue/black.

Open to correction in the hope of learning!

I clearly disagree 100% with Carnforth, one or both of us must be wrong!

[Alan O]

As Clerks are no longer regtl appointments but now all AGC a Superintendent Clerk in a Guards , or any other Bn, would wear AGC ranks badges. Guards beret perhaps but AGC insignia.

[Carnforth]

Originally Posted by grumpy

I clearly disagree 100% with Carnforth, one or both of us must be wrong!

I'm happy to be disagreed with, I make no claim to be infallible.

But for the sake of clarification, are you saying that you believe both that-

(a) Superintending Clerks wear the small badge*

(b) Guards RSMs at Army Apprentice Schools wore the large badge.

*Edited,
Should be past tense, I understand that the title is now Superintendent Clerk of HQ Household Division

[manchesters]

If possible in this discussion could you please provide an explaination that deals with KC badges as that is the period I was asking about.

Information about modern ranks always interesting to read also I must add.

thanks

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Carnforth

I'm happy to be disagreed with, I make no claim to be infallible.

But for the sake of clarification, are you saying that you believe both that-

(a) Superintending Clerks wear the small badge*

(b) Guards RSMs at Army Apprentice Schools wore the large badge.

*Edited,
Should be past tense, I understand that the title is now Superintendent Clerk of HQ Household Division

A. yes, wear or wore.
B. only if ex-RSM of a battalion, otherwise as depicted upthread at Arborfield.