25th Dragoons cast badge

[irish]

I realize without any provenance these cast badges are more curiosities than anything. Multi piece construction. To a unit that spent time in India during WW2. Likely wishful thinking on my part.

thanks
Jack

[tonyb]

Jack I think you could be correct.
Tony.

[fougasse1940]

Fellow forum member Peter Seaman in his excellent 'for hostilities only' book has two Indian locally made other ranks badges listed as figure 51: "Other ranks locally made, genrally accepted as being produced in India, cast bi-metal badge three piece in construction. The whole design cut from a sheet of white metal, the gilding metal/brass crown is attached using two integral pegs. The gilding metal/brass XXV and title scroll is a single piece this is also attached using integral pegs. n.b. The scroll ends terminate over the sword scabbards. On the reverse two loops situated north-south."

And figure 52, differing from 51 because "the scroll ends are fashioned in such a way as to give the impression that they go behind the scabbards. On the reverse two loop fasteners situated north - south."


So, Indian cast badges are known, but apparently not (yet) with the scroll endings like the real thing and with a slider fastener.

Rgds, Thomas.

[irish]

Thomas, thanks for the well laid out description of the known theater made pieces. Of the cast badges in my possession many are slidered but a number are looped.

In terms of this badge ever fooling anyone, it is likely very thin. As compared to badges that have been re-struck from original dies where bad intentions are a bit more obvious.

Would these have been made for the collector market or as souvenir's? The amount of work involved precludes IMO these being made cheaply. However "cheaply" may be relative to the place of manufacture and it's economy

Jack

[fougasse1940]

Jack I don't know, except that locally cast badges come in many different qualities, so who is to say what was actually worn regimentally and what is made for the collectors market, hopefully Peter Seaman wil provide his $0.02 worth. Or send him a PM.

Rgds, Thomas.

[Marcus H]

Hi Jack,

In my opinion, this is a perfectly good and genuine Indian cast badge.

I call this pattern the "Gaunt emulation," because it is a period cast copy of the UK produced badge. It's more often encountered with lugs, but occasionally with this short slider too - I have three of this "pattern" with the slider and three with lugs in addition.

In my research, I have established five patterns of Indian made ORs badges with a debatable sixth by Eden & Co, too.

So at the moment five known patterns with further adaptions on some to coincide with the eventual approved design exposing the sabres. These I have constituted as "variations" to a pattern along with the use of differing crown types to the known pattern; as I recall two "interchangeable" crown types spanning two patterns and one variation concerning the head-dress badge.

Arm Badge centres: the head-dress badges of a type appear to have been utilised, yes. Sometimes with the addition of a much larger crown type and extended sabre tips, and then other badge centres are seemingly specific by design and in purpose for the NCO badges only - this is a different kettle of fish for another day.

Fig. 51, in Peter's book, I would suggest is possibly an arm badge centre (I now own that very badge; see Fig. 68 for the same pattern and the cut scroll version), and I have a categorised this as the "first pattern" badge. Also found with a slider (I have two), plus the retro-cut scroll versions conforming to the just later approved design.

I say first pattern, but the example sent to England for approval was by my reckoning a second pattern design (Ref. WO32/9860). Possibly the incipient design being a little rudimentary? I don't know, but from what I can gather this proposed initial, or purported first pattern was the example "issued" to the founding members of the Regiment; although I can't definitively substantiate that claim and thought.

Fig. 52/56, are of the same pattern, (the "TH." pattern with a crown that resembles the Gaunt officers collar crown) it can be found with two crown types (to date) and is slightly smaller in size compared to the other four patterns. I have not yet encountered this pattern with a full scroll at this moment in time. Hence I have the feeling this badge was a later concept and manufactured with the full scroll and then cut accordingly - again accommodating the preferential design and tallying with the UK produced badges.

The search and study continues.

Incidentally, there is another Indian made head-dress badge that has the actual terminated scroll ends - I will provide links below.

Best,

Marcus

[Marcus H]

I expressed some thoughts on the "Gaunt emulation" here:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=31471&page=4

[Marcus H]

And here - see post 18, for 25th Dragoons and 26th Hussars. But more importantly Franks examples with provenance.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ghlight=Chatur

[Marcus H]

And before I forget, the "Gaunt emulation" has been copied/faked. A more recent cast fake badge with an odd painted colour scheme on the obverse, but as Sods Law would dictate there's not one listed on eBay today - I purchsed one though and will provide pictures later.

Best,

Marcus

[irish]

Marcus,

Many thanks. The links to prior discussions was very helpful. The example which I posted does match some of the examples shown.

I must admit to having a fascination with cast badges. This may not be healthy. As mentioned above in this thread I am always struck by what appears to be the time and energy expended to make these pieces.

During our own involvement in Vietnam the locally produced metal and cloth insignia was vast. Ranging in quality from very good to crude. Nothing escaped their abilities. Unit insignia from other theaters of war and time periods were also produced "in country". If you had a badge or patch and wanted it duplicated they would do it. Many of these makers living in small villages and working from their home.
Best
Jack

[Marcus H]

One of the fake/copy 25D "Gaunt emulation" badges has surfaced on eBay: 322591867397

[Frank Kelley]

I see it "comes in good condition" too, for nine and a half quid!