Regimental badge changes

[cbuehler]

I have always wondered what the process was when a regiment made changes and how long it took to effect this.
In particular, the Northumberland Fusiliers and the Black Watch made their changes around the same time. I would presume that OR badges would be ordered and distributed once supplies were made and old badges turned in, or did they keep them?
And officers. Badges were expensive purchases and officers would have to obtain them from tailors etc, and I would certainly be reluctant to ditch a fine old badge only to make another outlay for a whole new set. Were officers given a wear out time? Was all of this a regimental level process or WD level one?
In all, it must have taken some time to do this, beyond the nominal change date.

CB

PS, this query is in reference to the old pre 1953 Army, not modern times, which I assume would be a slightly different process.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

I have always wondered what the process was when a regiment made changes and how long it took to effect this.
In particular, the Northumberland Fusiliers and the Black Watch made their changes around the same time. I would presume that OR badges would be ordered and distributed once supplies were made and old badges turned in, or did they keep them?
And officers. Badges were expensive purchases and officers would have to obtain them from tailors etc, and I would certainly be reluctant to ditch a fine old badge only to make another outlay for a whole new set. Were officers given a wear out time? Was all of this a regimental level process or WD level one?
In all, it must have taken some time to do this, beyond the nominal change date.

CB

PS, this query is in reference to the old pre 1953 Army, not modern times, which I assume would be a slightly different process.

The best explanation that I have read concerning this process is told regiment-by-regiment in Colin Churchill’s book on infantry collar badges. The paperback version is perfectly adequate, not expensive, and may be readily had as a used (second hand/pre loved) purchase.

[Alan O]

The KOSB and Argylles actively encouraged the wearing of obselate badges especially if they had belonged to a relative who had previously served.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Alan O

The KOSB and Argylles actively encouraged the wearing of obselate badges especially if they had belonged to a relative who had previously served.

That’s perfectly true where the changes in pattern are subtle Alan, but I think the OP is more focused on the more substantial changes carried out by regiments like the Manchester’s and Northumberland Fusiliers. Where changes substantially altered the appearance of badges there was no alternative to replacements and it was generally only if an officer was within an accepted (usually stipulated) proximity in time to retirement that dispensation was granted to forego the expense (so-called grandfather’s rights). The same principle usually applied for mergers/amalgamations.

[cbuehler]

An interesting subject to me. Who decided to make badge changes? Was it the officers of the regiment as a whole or did it come from higher up?

CB

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

An interesting subject to me. Who decided to make badge changes? Was it the officers of the regiment as a whole or did it come from higher up?

CB

Usually initiated and discussed at regimental level and then proposals submitted to Horse Guards** where a view was taken by the Adjutant General’s department and a final sign off usually sought from the Sovereign in more recent reigns. Colin Churchill gives numerous examples, I earnestly recommend his book.

Probably the largest and most wide reaching example was when the numbered regiments were given Territorial association and title in July 1881. Dress Regulations were not issued until two years later in 1883 after full deliberation and decision had been made. It was a difficult process because many (but not all) of the more senior regiments had iconography going back to the 1745 Cloathing Book, whereas others had been entirely content with their numbers and wore very simple insignia. These had to be merged with ancient militia units (the militia was much older than the regular army) that had enjoyed Royal appellation and used civic badges historically and heraldically associated with their locale. It led to some of the new territorially aligned regiments insignia being dominated by the militia, and others not affected at all (ignoring the militia in some cases). Some of the former used subsequent decades, when things had settled down, to quietly discard the militia elements of insignia completely. The Manchester Regiment being probably the best example in case.

** nowadays being represented by an ‘Army Dress Committee’ that meets either annually, or when required depending upon the tempo of need. More recently much, but not all, is to do with cloth badges.
See:
1.https://assets.publishing.service.go...1-Redacted.pdf
2.https://assets.publishing.service.go...__Annex_K_.pdf
3.https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-february-2020
4.https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C2551973

[John Mulcahy]

A few examples of such changes. First The Royal Irish Fusiliers

The first full dress cap badge for the new regiment “The Royal Irish Fusiliers” was sealed on Dec.19, 1881 (pattern 9902) and he first Glengarry cap badge for the new regiment was sealed in Jan 20, 1882 (pattern 9989).

But, as early as June 10, 1882 the regiment petitioned the WO for a change to patterns 9902 and 9989 . A note in WO359 vol. 4 p. 49, dated June 10, 1882 (an extract from correspondence PC/Patterns/3790) notes that the decision to revert to the old pattern badge is on hold pending a clarification on who is to pay for the new dies.

On Dec. 15, 1882 the list of changes, WO359 vol. 4 p.65, notes that it was approved to revert to the former Sealskin cap badge, pattern 9691, (The Eagle without the words ‘Royal Irish Fusiliers”. Stocks of pattern 9902 to be used up first.

The new patterns were sealed July 11. 1883 (both full dress and glengarry grenades) .

I have found no details as to why the change was requested.

[John Mulcahy]

The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 1927 pattern forage cap badge.

Attached is the text of an article I did for The Bulletin of the Military Historical Society, Issue 257, Vol. 65, August 2014, pp. 14-15. The copyright remains with me and thus I am posting it here as the originator.


John

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 1927 pattern forage cap badge.

Attached is the text of an article I did for The Bulletin of the Military Historical Society, Issue 257, Vol. 65, August 2014, pp. 14-15. The copyright remains with me and thus I am posting it here as the originator.


John

Thank you John, as ever with your contributions, very interesting and useful specific examples of the subject at hand.

[Alan O]

Superb article. I have noted that there are 2 distinct OR badge dies. One (Pic 2 ) which has the full width of the tower tops in contact with the scroll and one (Pic 1 which is the badge that you show in your article) where they only partially touch. I have been unable to attribute each die to a particular maker as yet. Possibly some one has an officers badge using the same design that is maker marked?

[cbuehler]

Superb information here! Any badge collector would, or should, find this of interest.
I did not realize the Militia connection with regard to regular infantry badges.
The Manchester example is one of a total change with no relation to the former badge at all, and had nothing to do with a regimental title change either.
Please keep it coming.

CB

[Panther1]

An important part of the design of cap badges not yet mentioned is the College of Arms/school of Heraldry.
Requirements are submitted and the school produces drawings of the badges. This goes backwards and forwards between the Army/MOD until they are happy and then it is presented to the monarch, where it is either agreed and signed by the monarch, or the monarch asks for changes. Only after this can manufacturing begin

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Panther1

An important part of the design of cap badges not yet mentioned is the College of Arms/school of Heraldry.
Requirements are submitted and the school produces drawings of the badges. This goes backwards and forwards between the Army/MOD until they are happy and then it is presented to the monarch, where it is either agreed and signed by the monarch, or the monarch asks for changes. Only after this can manufacturing begin

That was/is indeed still, a part of the deliberations by the Adjutant General’s Department - or its equivalent today.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Panther1

An important part of the design of cap badges not yet mentioned is the College of Arms/school of Heraldry.
Requirements are submitted and the school produces drawings of the badges. This goes backwards and forwards between the Army/MOD until they are happy and then it is presented to the monarch, where it is either agreed and signed by the monarch, or the monarch asks for changes. Only after this can manufacturing begin

Originally Posted by cbuehler

Superb information here! Any badge collector would, or should, find this of interest.
I did not realize the Militia connection with regard to regular infantry badges.
The Manchester example is one of a total change with no relation to the former badge at all, and had nothing to do with a regimental title change either.
Please keep it coming.

CB

I am surprised that you had not learned of the Militia input before. If you’re interested I wrote a lengthier explanation in the introduction for this series along with a short extrapolation explaining the origin behind each regiment’s insignia design: http://www.uniformology.com/INSIGNIA-00.html

[cbuehler]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I am surprised that you had not learned of the Militia input before. If you’re interested I wrote a lengthier explanation in the introduction for this series along with a short extrapolation explaining the origin behind each regiment’s insignia design: http://www.uniformology.com/INSIGNIA-00.html

I am at a loss as to how I missed that section on Uniformology!
Thanks for that,

CB