Coldstream Guards

[grenadierguardsman]

Just been reading the History of The Coldstream Guards. Found an interesting snippet of information, i quote
" Silver Stars on the Forage Cap and sling belts to be worn by Regimental Sergeant Majors, Quartermaster Sergeants, Bandmasters, Drill Sergeants, Regimental Orderly Room Clerks, Hospital Sergeants, Armourer Sergeants, Master Tailors and Sergeant of Cooks. April 25th 1870 "
Andy

[grumpy]

Thank you. These are, in fact, the "Staff Sergeants", as opposed to the colour-sergeants and gold sergeants who were in the rifle companies.
The RSM and the Bandmaster were not WO until 11 years later, and the next tranche to get a leg up was in 1915 when WO II were created.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Just been reading the History of The Coldstream Guards. Found an interesting snippet of information, i quote
" Silver Stars on the Forage Cap and sling belts to be worn by Regimental Sergeant Majors, Quartermaster Sergeants, Bandmasters, Drill Sergeants, Regimental Orderly Room Clerks, Hospital Sergeants, Armourer Sergeants, Master Tailors and Sergeant of Cooks. April 25th 1870 "
Andy

I strongly suspect that that was the date that the badges of those 'staff sergeants' were to be made of silver thus elevating them in terms of badge above the gilding metal worn by colour sergeants and below. The gold band caps themselves had already been in use for some considerable time.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I strongly suspect that that was the date that the badges of those 'staff sergeants' were to be made of silver thus elevating them in terms of badge above the gilding metal worn by colour sergeants and below. The gold band caps themselves had already been in use for some considerable time.

Yes Toby, so would it have been the Silver Cap Star that the Senior WO's wear today ?
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Yes Toby, so would it have been the Silver Cap Star that the Senior WO's wear today ?
Andy

Yes, undoubtedly so, Andy. At first the staff sergeants were a single group divided into 3-classes. In 1881 the sergeant major was elevated out into the separate category of warrant officer. Then in 1915 the QMS became a warrant officer too, but in the lower most of a category now divided in two, along with drill sergeants, orderly room and some others. The others eventually lost status or became no longer required (e.g. Shoemaker), until in the end just the most senior of the original group of battalion staff sergeants remained, all of whom were warrant officers.

[Bill]

Toby
To summarise, after 1881 and prior to 1915 there was only one Class of Warrant Officer in the Brigade of Guards that of Regimental Sergeant Major, but three Classes of Sergeant. In 1915 a second WO Class was created, thus we have:
WO Class I : Regimental Sergeant Major
WO Class II: Company Quartermaster Sergeants; Company Sergeant Majors; Colour Sergeants
Is this correct?
Am I right in thinking that the Commissioned Quartermaster was a junior staff officer?
I get confused with KK description of rank assignment to the badges as Volume 1 and 2 differ.
The four associated cap badges for Warrant Officers and Staff Sergeants (Staff) in Vol 2 are:
GG – Gilt grenade with intertwined and reversed Royal cypher in silver mounted on the ball
CG – Symmetrical silver and enamel Star of the Order of the Garter
SG – Silver, gilt and enamel Star of the Order of the Thistle
IG – Silver, gilt and enamel Star of the Order of St Patrick.

Is it possible that the very, very rare GG badge that KK describe as Officers’ (gilt Royal cypher mounted on the ball) is the Regimental Sergeant Major’s badge because Dress Regs always describe Officers’ badges as bullion?

Also can anyone help with a more precise description of the differences between the SG and IG WO/Staff badges and those of the Officers?
Bill

[manchesters]

Bill,

The CQMS and Colour Sergeants were SNCO's and not WO II's

regards

[Toby Purcell]

Bill I shall reply with a longer response later, but will start now with just the initial part of your query. The key to this is understanding that after 1881, each position/post in the battalion had an 'appointment', i.e. his job title, and a 'rank'. Sometimes these were the same, e.g. Colour Sergeant, which is why there is often confusion, but in most cases the difference between the two, 'appointment' and 'rank', were clear. As always there was a reason, a rationale to all this. In this case it is because before 1881 rank titles and pecking order (status) were done regimentally, which when all arms formations were created for war (brigades/divisions) meant there could be confusion for the unfamiliar as to who ranked equal (or superior/inferior) with who. The intention after 1881 was to make clear comparable ranks on an army level, but it was felt that job titles were so useful that they should remain. Thus it was decided that each post would have both. There was also considerable resistance to this attempt at standardisation on the basis, if it ain't broke don't fix it, which led to cavalry, horse and foot guards retaining their arcane rank titles such as corporal of horse, etc. In short, the attempt at standardisation was neither rigidly, nor universally enforced.

Turning to warrant officers, from 1881, the Foot Guards could have up to 4 (line regiments just 3). These were the sergeant major, the bandmaster, the superintending clerk (not in the line) and, if at the last stage of his career, the schoolmaster (attached). All others at battalion HQ 'staff' level were categorised in the grouping 'staff sergeants'. Company NCOs, i.e. Colour Sergeant and below in the 8 companies did not have the status to wear peaked caps, or superior badges at that time.

In 1915, the double company system that had been debated by the infantry for over a decade (with its concomitant sub-unit sergeant majors, it had been in use for the cavalry since the 1890s (when they paired troops and TSMs became SSMs) and the artillery even longer) was at last brought into use. Companies were paired to create one large company, with one colour sergeant becoming CSM (to mirror the battalion level SM) and the more junior colour sergeant became CQMS (mirroring the battalion QMS). At the same time it was decided that to give the CSM the necessary status he should be made a warrant officer and the rank was divided into two classes to coincide. The opportunity was also taken to restore the status of the QMS by making him too a warrant officer in the new, 2nd class, along with the drill sergeants. All these warrant officers, of both classes, wore the staff badge, which for the first time was extended down to company level, in the form of the CSM.
I hope that all this makes sense.

[grenadierguardsman]

Ive read some where that Guards Bandmasters didn't wear badges of rank.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Bill

Toby
To summarise, after 1881 and prior to 1915 there was only one Class of Warrant Officer in the Brigade of Guards that of Regimental Sergeant Major, but three Classes of Sergeant. In 1915 a second WO Class was created, thus we have:
WO Class I : Regimental Sergeant Major
WO Class II: Company Quartermaster Sergeants; Company Sergeant Majors; Colour Sergeants
Is this correct?
Am I right in thinking that the Commissioned Quartermaster was a junior staff officer?
I get confused with KK description of rank assignment to the badges as Volume 1 and 2 differ.
The four associated cap badges for Warrant Officers and Staff Sergeants (Staff) in Vol 2 are:
GG – Gilt grenade with intertwined and reversed Royal cypher in silver mounted on the ball
CG – Symmetrical silver and enamel Star of the Order of the Garter
SG – Silver, gilt and enamel Star of the Order of the Thistle
IG – Silver, gilt and enamel Star of the Order of St Patrick.

Is it possible that the very, very rare GG badge that KK describe as Officers’ (gilt Royal cypher mounted on the ball) is the Regimental Sergeant Major’s badge because Dress Regs always describe Officers’ badges as bullion?

Also can anyone help with a more precise description of the differences between the SG and IG WO/Staff badges and those of the Officers?
Bill

Bill, i don't think Kipling and King meant the Cypher was gilt. Just the Grenade.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Ive read some where that Guards Bandmasters didn't wear badges of rank.
Andy

That is quite possible, Andy. The Foot (and Horse) Guards have always had their own rules. It's just a question of checking through relevant regulations to find out what they were. Bands in general (i.e. not just Guards) also did unusual things anyway, such as reversed facings, and tall black men in turbans playing 'jingling johnnies'. This latter included the Guards and some quite outlandish uniforms.

[grenadierguardsman]

If i was in the Band, i'd end up with the Triangle.
Andy

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Bill I shall reply with a longer response later, but will start now with just the initial part of your query. The key to this is understanding that after 1881, each position/post in the battalion had an 'appointment', i.e. his job title, and a 'rank'. Sometimes these were the same, e.g. Colour Sergeant, which is why there is often confusion, but in most cases the difference between the two, 'appointment' and 'rank', were clear. As always there was a reason, a rationale to all this. In this case it is because before 1881 rank titles and pecking order (status) were done regimentally, which when all arms formations were created for war (brigades/divisions) meant there could be confusion for the unfamiliar as to who ranked equal (or superior/inferior) with who. The intention after 1881 was to make clear comparable ranks on an army level, but it was felt that job titles were so useful that they should remain. Thus it was decided that each post would have both. There was also considerable resistance to this attempt at standardisation on the basis, if it ain't broke don't fix it, which led to cavalry, horse and foot guards retaining their arcane rank titles such as corporal of horse, etc. In short, the attempt at standardisation was neither rigidly, nor universally enforced.

Turning to warrant officers, from 1881, the Foot Guards could have up to 4 (line regiments just 3). These were the sergeant major, the bandmaster, the superintending clerk (not in the line) and, if at the last stage of his career, the schoolmaster (attached). All others at battalion HQ 'staff' level were categorised in the grouping 'staff sergeants'. Company NCOs, i.e. Colour Sergeant and below in the 8 companies did not have the status to wear peaked caps, or superior badges at that time.

In 1915, the double company system that had been debated by the infantry for over a decade (with its concomitant sub-unit sergeant majors, it had been in use for the cavalry since the 1890s (when they paired troops and TSMs became SSMs) and the artillery even longer) was at last brought into use. Companies were paired to create one large company, with one colour sergeant becoming CSM (to mirror the battalion level SM) and the more junior colour sergeant became CQMS (mirroring the battalion QMS). At the same time it was decided that to give the CSM the necessary status he should be made a warrant officer and the rank was divided into two classes to coincide. The opportunity was also taken to restore the status of the QMS by making him too a warrant officer in the new, 2nd class, along with the drill sergeants. All these warrant officers, of both classes, wore the staff badge, which for the first time was extended down to company level, in the form of the CSM.
I hope that all this makes sense.

Yes, it is an excellent summary. As a small footnote, there was a silly period from late 1913 [when double companies started to be formed] until May 1915 [when WO II CSMs created] when both the CSM and the CQMS were of equal rank [Colour sergeant], wore the same badge of rank [three chevrons and crown/colour badge] but the CSM was paid a few pence extra for his pains. Whether the whole matter was thought through, or was driven by expediency in the Great War, is a matter for conjecture.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

Yes, it is an excellent summary. As a small footnote, there was a silly period from late 1913 [when double companies started to be formed] until May 1915 [when WO II CSMs created] when both the CSM and the CQMS were of equal rank [Colour sergeant], wore the same badge of rank [three chevrons and crown/colour badge] but the CSM was paid a few pence extra for his pains. Whether the whole matter was thought through, or was driven by expediency in the Great War, is a matter for conjecture.

Yes I recall you and I chatting this through before. As you have implied, I think that this was because the reorganisation was implemented before a decision regarding the badges to be worn was agreed. It was, after all, a new concept only to infantrymen, the RA had had sub-unit sergeant majors and QMS for generations.

[Bill]

Toby
Thank you for that full response it makes things much clearer.

Andy
The gilt cypher (as opposed to silver) mounted on a gilt grenade does exist, one came up for sale at Bosley's some time ago. What it is is a different matter! Sorting out which appointment had which badge is still not clear - including the badges with the small grenade stamped under the cypher...

Bill