RAF Brevet identification - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Fred Davis · #1 13-09-11, 06:51 PM

Hi, sorry about this, I've posted this twice, but just realised it wasn't in the correct section (i.e RAF), so I've copied & pasted it again!
I'm afraid this is rather long-winded, & I thank you for reading.
I've recently become interested in the RAF, & was looking to find info on some RAF brevets I've been given if possible.
I've trawled the internet, but can't quite find the info I'm after.
They're reproduction half wing brevets with brown wreath surrounding a letter (eg 'B' for Bomb Aimer). I really need to find out which are from the WWII period or not.
I have the following letters on the brevets: RO (Radio operator), D (Driver), MG (Mid Gunner), NG (Nose Gunner), FS (Flight Steward!!-can't be wartime i guess), QM (Quarter Master), FC (Flight Controller), Parachute Jump instructor, O (observer), RAF (Weapons Systems Operator??), W (Weapons Operator), AT (Air Technician), B (Bomb Aimer), N (Navigator), LM (Load Master).
I think the Bomb Aimer, Navigator, Radio Operator, & Para instructor are correct as I've found info on these. All the rest though, I'm not at all sure they are WWII period. I think the Load Master brevet may have been introduced in the early 1950s...not sure though.
Also, I have a feeling the Observer brevet is wrong, & shouldn't have the brown wreath, rather should be just a wing joined to an 'O'.
Thanks in advance for reading all that...I hope someone can help with this...And thanks for what lookis like a great forum.

SAS1 · #2 13-09-11, 09:52 PM

Hi Fred and welcome

The RO brevet was actually 'Observer, Radio' (basically a radar operator although why the title was back to front I dont know. The QM wing was worn from 1962 and was apparently the first to be worn by women, there being 10 at its introduction. In 1970 it was superceded by the 'LM' Loadmaster wing.

The 'FC' was actually 'Fighter Controller', first worn in 1983 although apparently only ever officially sanctioned in 1988. The Parachute Jump Instructor was introduced in 1945 and continues to this day, while the 'RAF' was introduced only about 6 years ago, effectively replacing the navigator in some aircraft. It should have a crown above the letters.

The 'O' was first introduced in WW1 and worn until 1942. This should be an 'O' alone and without a wreath. The 'B', 'RO', and 'N' were all introduced in WW2, the latter surviving until today I think. 'AT' was worn from 1990.

I'm afraid to say the 'D', 'MG', 'NG', 'FS' and 'W' badges are all fantasy items that have only ever appeared on ebay, and have never been worn or sanctioned by the RAF, MoD or Air Ministry.

To get an indication of date (for example of the N wing which was worn from 1942 onwards) we'd have to see a scan or photo of the badges.

SAS

dragon166 · #3 13-09-11, 10:05 PM

D (Driver), MG (Mid Gunner), NG (Nose Gunner), FS (Flight Steward!W (Weapons Operator) are all fantasy items. As you say, the observer you appear to have is also incorrect. The only WWII items would have been; B, RO, N and PJI, the remainder being much more modern. The QM was replaced by the LM in the 70s. The AT(Aircraft Technician) and FC (Fighter Controller) were introduced for the AWACS (Sentry) aircraft. The one with RAF is the present issue for all non-pilot aircrew (except FC, AT and PJI) but only if it has a Crown above the wreath. Some examples sold on ebay do not have the crown and like the first ones mentioned are fantasy items. There is also a new one, although I haven't seen one yet, IA (Image Analyst) for use on the Sentinel aircraft.

grumpy · #4 14-09-11, 08:25 AM

don't forget M for Met. Definitely issued and worn during and after WW II.

A friend, wearing it as Flt Sgt, had to visit Air Min., and was accosted by air commodore: "that wing, Flight Sergeant?".
Straight faced: "Midwife sir! A lot of pregnant ladies on the trooping flights these days!"
"Oh! I see! Carry on!!

thats what he says ...........

Fred Davis · #5 14-09-11, 12:08 PM

Thanks very much for that. Very helpful & informative.
Interesting to learn a few are fantasy badges. There's no crown over the RAF brevet too. Damn. I wonder why someone came up with the idea...can't be all that lucrative.
Am I correct in thinking that these brevets, which I don't have: E (engineer), S(Signaller), AG (Air Gunner), and WAG (Wireless Operator Air Gunner) along with the M (Met), are the same style brown wreath brevets form WWII period?
Thanks again for the info, exactly what I was after...now, what to do with the fakes?
Cheers.
P.S. I also have four smaller brevets, with a gold bullion wreath & wing surrounding a silver letter. I think (but again am not sure), these are mess dress brevets. I have S (Signaller), WAG, RAF (no crown) and LM...I wonder if these are fantasy brevets too. Hope not as my beginners collection has been halved now due to those fantasy brevets.

David Tremain · #6 14-09-11, 03:01 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the WW2 brevets have a canvas backing, whereas later issued ones have a felt backing. I have a Bomb Aimer's brevet that is WW2 and has a canvas backing. David

grumpy · #7 14-09-11, 03:14 PM

may I suggest investing in Badges and uniforms of the RAF by Malcolm Hobart ISBN 0-85052-739-2 ?

His illustrated list with notes and descriptions comprises:

pilot
observer
AG [and the earlier flying bullet in gilding metal]
RO
B
N
E
S
M
the parachute for para training
QM
LM
AE
FC
AT

dragon166 · #8 14-09-11, 04:47 PM

Yes, E (engineer), S(Signaller), AG (Air Gunner), and WAG (Wireless Operator Air Gunner) along with the M (Met), are the same pattern of white letters in a brown wreath. As for your smaller gold wire badges, they are for mess dress. However, as they are private purchase items, the design do vary - especially in size of the wing. But they all have one thing in common - they should be on a base material of RAF blue/grey and not black as per the full size badges. Again ebay is festooned with rubbish versions embroidered on a black background - beware!

SAS1 · #9 14-09-11, 10:32 PM

Fred

The wartime brevets were: O, AG, RO, E, N, B, S, PJI (Parachute), and M. The O as discussed is unique in having no wreath, the rest are of the same pattern. The WAG, FE (Flight Engineer) and AE (Air Engineer) were also worn, but were never authorised by the Air Ministry. This came about in the latter as the trade of Flight Engineer or Air Engineer was announced which set tailors off making the FE and AE wings. When the official badge was authorised it was simply an E. There were issue badges but many tailors produced their own for private purchase when ordering a uniform. I ahve a couple of WAG and an FE wing (including a WAG wing on a DFC winners tunic). The AE was introduced officially in the 60s as 'Air Electronics' and worn for years.

The M wing was authorised in March 1945. I Have one from a met man, who tells me that he had worn a converted N wing from 1942. Likewise the PJI was introduced only in April 1945 replacing a sleeve trade badge.

Wireless Ops originally were dual traned and so wore the AG half wing and telecommunications badge on the sleeve. later the trade was dedicated and the AG gave way to the S wing. Likewise the O wing was replaced in 1942 by the B and N wings.

Re the other points, as wings were both issued and private purchase numerous backings can be found.

The Hobart book is generally regarded as being very poor, and is probably best used as a very general guide only. He makes no distinction between wartime and post war badges, and its illustrated with repro badges, originals and in one case a badly mothed example!

Dragon gives all the relevant details of the Mess dress wings. I'm not sure ive seen the 'RAF' wing so not certain if it has a crown, but I'd assume so.