Inns Of Court OTC

[ubervamp]

I posted this on the General Topics section initially, but this is probably the correct section:

Hi all

I was hoping someone here can shed light on something I've been wondering about for a while;

The IOC OTC badge 1908- comes in both g/m and blackened versions - does anyone know why there would be blackened and non-blackened? Battalion distinctions? Or could the non-blackened be private purchase or maybe a walking out badge?

The same with the IOW (8th Territorial Battalion) - a g/m version and a blackened version, though here I guess a battalion distinction wouldn't apply!

Any help much appreciated!

Cheers

Colin

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by ubervamp

I posted this on the General Topics section initially, but this is probably the correct section:

Hi all

I was hoping someone here can shed light on something I've been wondering about for a while;

The IOC OTC badge 1908- comes in both g/m and blackened versions - does anyone know why there would be blackened and non-blackened? Battalion distinctions? Or could the non-blackened be private purchase or maybe a walking out badge?

The same with the IOW (8th Territorial Battalion) - a g/m version and a blackened version, though here I guess a battalion distinction wouldn't apply!

Any help much appreciated!

Cheers

Colin

Colin,

Not a specific/definitive reply I'm afraid, but with regard to IoC, K&K states:

'In gilding-metal. Officers': silver, also in bronze.'

No mention of 'blackened' which seems odd as blackened would seem likely given the unit's Rifles origins

IMG_2766.jpg

It doesn't necessarily follow that simply because K&K states 'gilding-metal' that badges were not blackened, of course; we see them in B/B all the time (as you allude to above).

IMG_2764.jpgIMG_2765.jpgIMG_2767.jpg

I too often wonder why some units' badges encompassed a range of constituent metals, though I am not sure in the case of the IoC that it would necessarily be attributable to the reasons broached in this thread:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=61036

As for IoW Rifles (8th Hampshires), K&K states:

'Black-, [sic] white-metal and silver'

Hopefully those with more knowledge will be able to bring something more constructive to the table.

Cheers,

JT

[ubervamp]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Colin,

Not a specific/definitive reply I'm afraid, but with regard to IoC, K&K states:

'In gilding-metal. Officers': silver, also in bronze.'

No mention of 'blackened' which seems odd as blackened would seem likely given the unit's Rifles origins

Attachment 170806

It doesn't necessarily follow that simply because K&K states 'gilding-metal' that badges were not blackened, of course; we see them in B/B all the time (as you allude to above).

Attachment 170800Attachment 170801Attachment 170802

I too often wonder why some units' badges encompassed a range of constituent metals, though I am not sure in the case of the IoC that it would necessarily be attributable to the reasons broached in this thread:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=61036

As for IoW Rifles (8th Hampshires), K&K states:

'Black-, [sic] white-metal and silver'

Hopefully those with more knowledge will be able to bring something more constructive to the table.

Cheers,

JT

Thanks JT

I have also assumed that the blackening of these two badges have a connection with their Rifles origins.
But I seem to see as many non-blackened as blackened IOW badges, usually g/m. I'm sure there's a good explanation as to why some OR's are blackened and some not - I just haven't been able to find it!

Cheers

Colin

[Alan O]

As a general rule blackened badges were worn from 1908 and reflected the rifle origins of the VBs before them. Often originally worn on Rifle green uniforms pre WW1. Post Ww1 when TF were re-raised and cadet units evolved, the later brass ones replaced them. They were always exceptions!

[ubervamp]

Originally Posted by Alan O

As a general rule blackened badges were worn from 1908 and reflected the rifle origins of the VBs before them. Often originally worn on Rifle green uniforms pre WW1. Post Ww1 when TF were re-raised and cadet units evolved, the later brass ones replaced them. They were always exceptions!

Thanks Alan

So, as a rule of thumb, (albeit there being exceptions) the brass are to be considered post WW1? I suppose the next step would be to study photographs of the period and try to discern whether the IOC and IOW were such exceptions or whether their badges were blackened during WW1 with brass replacing them post 1920.
(I see Doyle has shown the brass version in his book on WW1 badges)


Cheers

Colin

[Alan O]

Colin

It's impossible to generalise and to date them in many cases. With the 'Rifles' OTC units, I often know what blackened badges they wore c.Ww1 from photos and I know what brass ones they wore in 1938 and later as CCFs. There is a trend but no hard and fast rule.

Alan

[Phil2M]

Huge numbers of fake IOWs out there, could account for many of the gm versions you are seeing.

[KLR]

Colin,
In 1915 the WO took over provision of all TF badges centrally, instead of the hundreds of different county associations. From this time they were give regular WO Pattern numbers. I can tell you that in April 1916 the WO sent out a tender ist for millions of badges which included
3,000 cap badges for Pattern 592/1915 8th Hampshire Rgt, (Isle of Wight Rifles) GM Bron
4,000 cap badges for Pattern 591/1915 Inns of Court OTC GM Bronzed

GM is (obviously) gilding metal but bron or bronzed is, in WO speak, blackened and you will find that virtually every rifle unit badge was ‘bronzed’. (confusingly they did indeed mean ‘brown’ when describing the patina on most yeomanry regiments – and the Lpl Pals !)

Just like the Lpl Pals, they are commonly found with the ‘bronzing’ worn off so that it looks like a GM badge !!
J

[ubervamp]

Thanks for your time and replies, guys!

Phil; You're right there! The majority of IOW's I see on eBay are (bad) fakes, and mostly g/m!

Alan; I see your point regarding trends and the fallpit of overgeneralization!

Julian; thanks for the WO info and the tender list info! Interesting point regarding the "bronze" - "blackened" WO terminology, too!

Cheers

Colin

[Kevin Elliott]

Hi Colin,

I'm a rather inexperienced badge collector living on IOW, but with an interest in IOW Rifles material. I have seen both (H.M.'ed solid) silver and several bronzed (which could appear blackened) examples with very creditable provenance, i.e. from family of soldiers who served in WW1 and later. I am suspicious of plain brass and gilt versions, as this badge seems to be heavily faked.

I wonder if this site might interest you? It is rather well hidden in a local history site and has extensive galleries of cabinet photos showing many WW1 soldiers in uniform. Look in the drop down menu "Photographic Records".

https://isleofwightrifles.org.uk/index.php

Kind regards,

Kevin

[ubervamp]

Originally Posted by Kevin Elliott

Hi Colin,

I'm a rather inexperienced badge collector living on IOW, but with an interest in IOW Rifles material. I have seen both (H.M.'ed solid) silver and several bronzed (which could appear blackened) examples with very creditable provenance, i.e. from family of soldiers who served in WW1 and later. I am suspicious of plain brass and gilt versions, as this badge seems to be heavily faked.

I wonder if this site might interest you? It is rather well hidden in a local history site and has extensive galleries of cabinet photos showing many WW1 soldiers in uniform. Look in the drop down menu "Photographic Records".

https://isleofwightrifles.org.uk/index.php

Kind regards,

Kevin

Hi Kevin

Thanks for that! A very interesting site to a very interesting battalion
Some excellent photos there, too.

Cheers

Colin