48th Foot - Genuine Pre-1881 or Early Restrike Button

[Cribyn]

Morning all

There seems to have been a shortage of button posts lately so I thought I would add a potentially controversial one!

It is generally recognised that the other ranks numbered tunic button was in use from 1855 to 1871 when "a universal pattern button was approved for other ranks of most regiments ........ Some regimental buttons continued to be produced in brass but they were purchased privately ...." (a quote from Howard Ripley's "Buttons of the Regular Army 1855-2000").

In "(Military) Shoulder-Belt Plates and Buttons" Parkyn states "All the designs worn by other ranks, 1855-1871, on their tunic buttons have also been restruck. At first these had the name of the firm on the back, but later had the words 'special made' or plain backs". I think most collectors know of these buttons and tend to include them in their collection regardless of whether they are restrikes or not, particularly as it is so difficult to tell them apart. Officers buttons were also restruck but I am not concerned with those here.

What do you make of this one on offer from the well known ebay seller endici (and I immediately say I am not criticising them in any way, nor do I have any connection with them other than as a satisfied customer) - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48th-North...item58f5b8bb4c - a button described as 48th Foot, other ranks, 1855-1871.

The eagle-eyed will note that the backmark says "Firmin & Sons Ld". Firmin became a limited company in 1876, so this button could not have been made before that date.

So, is this a genuine period button made after 1871, one of the privately purchased items mentioned by Howard Ripley, or is it one of the earlier restrikes with the maker's backmark made in around 1900 mentioned by Parkyn?

Is there any way of telling? Does it really matter anyway?

Just to repeat myself, no criticism intended of endici (I know they have a host of loyal followers on this Forum!), I am just trying to get my head around this issue of early restrikes!

Any views anyone?

Roger

[btns]

Roger,
I agree with your remarks and I am sure the seller did not notice.
We need to find this particular back die on another button.

I do not have a single "special made" backmark, and my only "special make" button is civilian.
The restrikes may have been made in relatively small numbers, e.g. 1 gross. It makes it a very rare button.
best regards,

[Cribyn]

Hello btns

Many thanks for your response.

I have had a quick look through my numbered buttons and found this one for the 85th Foot - exactly the same backmark as for the 48th Foot button. So far I have found no other ranks button with a 'Special Made' backmark and none with plain backs either.

The one for the 85th Foot has obvious signs of wear, polishing away of some of the raised detail, but whether this was done when in military use or by a subsequent collector is anybody's guess.

I also found exactly the same backmark on a button for the 23rd Bombay Light Infantry. Poulsom dates this variant as in use between 1861 and 1903, so not much use there other than to confirm that this backmark was used on buttons other than pre-1881 restrikes!

After all this time I very much doubt that we will ever know the truth but it is a nice point to discuss and yet another button mystery!

Regards
Roger

[Kevin Elliott]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

After all this time I very much doubt that we will ever know the truth but it is a nice point to discuss and yet another button mystery!

Hi Roger,

As a button collector for almost two months now, I obviously have nothing of value to contribute to this thread. It did serve to indicate to me the depth of knowledge it will require to become anything like proficient in this area of collecting and frankly I haven't got long enough to live!

Most of us ask a question and maybe offer up a hypothesis, leaving others to chew over the various known facts to support any conclusions. Your question already contained references which compounded the difficulty anyone would have in answering the question. You kind of answered your own question by leaving us nowhere to go, other than reach the same imponderable outcome.

Ironically, having read the initial opening missive, I reached your above quoted conclusion in seconds. There is only one more thing I think you should have considered...such uncertainty will only keep you awake at night worrying and fill you with disappointment, so just pop all these rouge buttons in a jiffy envelope and post them to me. You've got my address. If, as I suspect, you can't bring yourself to do that, then a "does it matter and who cares" attitude may have to prevail in respect to these particular buttons.

Thanks for all the help and encouragement you have already given me - now get on and write a book.

Kind regards,

Kevin.

[Cribyn]

Hello Kevin

In all honesty I never expected to get a satisfactory conclusion to my query. That said though, it never ceases to amaze me how much knowledge there is contained in this Forum and how much information comes out of it when prompted by seemingly unanswerable questions!

I live in hope that someone might be sitting on a piece of information that might be common knowledge to them but not to the rest of us and might just be the answer to this query. Who knows, someone may have a list of these early restrikes, they may have information about who made them and how many were made or details of which regiments made private purchases of other ranks buttons. More than likely not but if we don't ask the question we will never get the answer.

Worry not, my friend, I won't lose any sleep over whether the odd pre-1881 button I have is a restrike (I might if they were 'Gaunt London' marked though!) but thank you for the offer of taking them off my hands, very noble of you!

Roger

PS I will leave the writing of books to those much more knowledgeable than me.