25th Foot patch enquiry

[jf42]

Originally Posted by lettman

I'm not entirely sure what the first half of the above post is getting at -- excuse me if my reply has misinterpreted your intentions. The bullion is embroidered directly onto the red cloth -- it's nota separate item mounted onto the red cloth. Also, when I purchased it from the collection of a well-established collector of Scottish insignia, there was another example like it but in not as good condition, i.e. it's not a one-off.

No intention, lettman. More thinking with my mouth open, as they say. Point taken about the design being embroidered directly onto the cloth. I was attempting to think through why the badge should have been mounted on a backing that correlated to the scarlet doublet/ frock.

I can't comment on how the patch compares to the quality of cloth to be seen in those garments but it seems pretty unlikely this object was mounted on regulation uniform.

A local adaption for tropical headgear does seem more likely.

[lettman]

I tend to agree with your assessment. Unfortunately I can't ask the previous owner, as he is no longer with us. I bought the item along with quite a few others from his estate.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by jf42

Is the scarlet cloth backing relevant? Does it fairly certainly indicate an origin from before 1914? From how far back might we expect a fabric item of this to survive?

Moreover, there is something notable about the choice of red as opposed to a blue or tartan backing for an emblem associated with a Scottish regiment- given that, I assume, we accept that this patch was unlikely to have been worn on a doublet or frock.

Am I correct in thinking this emblem, showing only the castle and the motto of the city of Edinburgh, bears a resemblance to the collar badge, with the addition of the number 'XXV'?

I wonder if the red patch was simply a way of mounting the bullion badge as a memento.

I suspect a regulation metal badge or a tartan flash would have been more likely on a tropical helmet pagri, particularly after 1900, while a cloth flash would have been more likely to be worn on the khaki cover of the Foreign Service helmet. Does that sound right?

The Foreign Service Helmet /Wolseley Helmet years:

The 1st Battalion XXV/KOSB were in India, including Afghanistan from 1878-1890. After 2 years in South Africa 1900-1903, they served in Egypt 1906-11 and India 1911-1915 from where they left for Gallipoli.


The 2nd Battalion XXV had a tour in Ceylon & India 1873-79 returning via Aden

Two years in Egypt/Sudan for the 2nd Bn, 1888-90, were followed by a 13-year tour in India, including the Chitral and Tirah campaigns, finishing with two years in Burma 1903-1905.

After WWI, between 1923 and 1947 the 2nd KOSB spent 20 out of 24 years in Egypt, Hong Kong, India and fighting in Burma.

Red because they were a Royal regiment. Tartan wasn't worn before 31 January 1882. Initially the black Watch tartan and from 1889 the Leslie tartan.
This combination of castle, motto and number is unique to this item.

Rgds, Thomas.

[jf42]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

Red because they were a Royal regiment. Tartan wasn't worn before 31 January 1882. Initially the black Watch tartan and from 1889 the Leslie tartan.
This combination of castle, motto and number is unique to this item.

Rgds, Thomas.

That is an interesting point which hadn't ocurred to me, being focussed on red as a coat colour.

Blue coat facings as a distinction of Royal Regiments were of much longer standing than red cap distinctions which I believe for Royal Regiments only applied to a red band on officers' forage cap and the red tuft on the last pattern shako from 1870, with the option of a red backing or inset to the Home Service helmet plate badge post-1882. (AFIK) the KOB Regt did not adopt a red badge inset during the period they wore the blue helmet and the officers' forage cap had incorporated a band of dicing- although I am not sure from what date.

However, I have just come across a note that in South Africa the KOSBs wore on their helmets a red flash with KOSB in white, which, if reliable, does add some weight to the notion of the OP item being intended for a sun helmet.

[Toby Purcell]

Yes, I think it would have to be a later flash, not least because of its quality. In the 2nd Anglo/Boer War the majority of helmet flashes were red with white lettering (less Rifles) because they were fashioned from cut off shoulder straps from scarlet frocks.

[Advsmt]

Very nice item. Looking at the back image I found the dark material rather curious. The larger dark cloth/stitching I thought was part of the embroidery peeking out from the backing, but perhaps not as there appears to be more dark material on the bottom edge - is this stitching thread or remnants of the background cloth? Is the larger cloth/stitching multi-coloured? Does this suggest the whole badge was sown onto some darker background cloth and can inference be made as to the choice of thread used to outline the piece?

Bryan

[lettman]

The dark blue material appears to be the same colour as the scroll, but is not part of the scroll. In other words it appears that the sign may have been attached to something the same blue as on the sign itself. What this implies I'm afraid I have no idea.

[MAP32]

The item is part of an officer's shoulder strap from the 1870s. It should have a white piping around the edges.

map

[MAP32]

This is a complete example of one for the 76th.