Two buttons to be dated

[garry thomson]

Hi Gents, could you give me the years these buttons were worn? the one on the left is silvered could be an officers.
Thanks Garry

[Cribyn]

Hello Garry

This pattern of button would have been in general use from about 1859 to 1901.

It might be possible to date your specific buttons by reference to the backmarks. I will look these up and get back to you - unless I am beaten to it by someone else!

As you said, the silver plated version is for officers, the other, white metal, for other ranks.

Regards
Roger

[davidwyke]

.Hi Chaps

That pattern first introduced c. 1860, just slightly later than Rifle Vols.

Left is Officers, Right is O/R's.

Not at home so can't check backmarks but think Stillwell would have been in business throughout their period of use. Not sure about the O/R's button.

As regards how long they were worn, Roger is probably right, until c.1901. But was there a change in title in 1891 Engineer Volunteers to Volunteer Engineers?? I can't remember off hand, obviously if there was that would limit the period of use, but perhaps they used the same title throught?

David

PS.... as regards possible 1891 title change - the remaining Rifle Vols reversed the title then of course. Not sure about Engineers. I might be thinking of Militia Engineers, they did change from Engineer Militia to Militia Engineers in 1891.

So, I would say - if no title change - c.1860 - 1901. But if there was a title change then c.1891 - 1901. Unless Roger can amend this from the backmarks?

[Cribyn]

Hello again

From my information (and always ready to be corrected), Stillwell & Son used the Barbican address on its own prior to about 1863. After that date '6 Little Britain' appeared, so I would date this button to no later than the mid 1860s.

The Harman backmark button is a little more difficult to date as I have only come across the backmark 'Harman & Co Calcutta'. I have never seen buttons with a backmark 'Harman & Co Chatham'.

Harman & Co Calcutta were military outfitters and tailors and so it is quite possible that they had an outlet in Chatham and asked the maker of the buttons to put that address on some of the buttons they supplied.

As for the date the buttons were used, David could well be right. I have examples of both Engineer Volunteers and Volunteer Engineers but have never been quite sure when the one button would have replaced the other!

Roger

[davidwyke]

Hi Roger

I think the usual thought is that the titles were changed in 1891 at the same time as Rifle Vols.

That said, if the backmark is from the 1860's that can't be the case with Engineer Volunteers/Volunteer Engineers can it?

I'm not at home so can't check the titles on my buttons. I do know I have both versions of Militia but not sure about Volunteers. Perhaps the titles were interchangeable as far as Engineers were concerned?

Nothing straightforward with buttons!

David

[davidwyke]

Hi Roger

Just been doing a bit of research on these two buttons.

I'm reasonably sure now (although not 100% certain) that, officially at least, the title changed from Engineer Volunteers to Volunteer Engineers in 1891. I admit that it's possible that the buttons might not have always adhered to the correct title, although the examples I have would fit in with that date.

As regards Stillwell, it would appear that their main address throughout the possible "life" of the button was Barbican. They also used various other additional addresses during the period but the question is, did they always include the additional locations on the backmark?

So where does that leave us? We both agree that the button on the left is Officers and the one on the right is O/R's. Also that the general pattern of button was worn c.1860-1901.

I think that while it's possible they could be earlier, it's more likely that they were made c.1891-1901. I realise that might not be what you think though!

David

[Cribyn]

Hello David

I have always maintained that whilst backmarks can be a useful dating tool they are not foolproof!

This may well be a case in point. My information is that Stillwell acquired the '6 Little Britain' address in about 1863/64 and were there (as well as at other addresses) until after the turn of the century.

The list of backmarks I produced was based on the wording that actually appeared on the backs of the buttons (rather than on addresses in directories and the like) and I (and others, the work was not mine alone) noted the use of 'Barbican' on its own in the backmark prior to the mid 1860s. After that date I noted the use of '25 Barbican & 6 Little Britain' and then variations of just 'Stillwell & Son London' with no other address. It was this that made me suggest that the button in question could be earlier than 1865.

All that said, there is no reason why Stillwell could not have used an existing, earlier die to produce a backmark on a button produced in the 1890s. They might even have reverted to the 'Barbican' address on its own for some reason.

Backmarks remain something of a mystery and to me that is one of the fascinating things about them.

Roger

[garry thomson]

Hello, Rodger/David Thank you for that excellent info. I am now looking at buttons in a different light. The comments and the information that you both give in the forum makes the topic so interesting.
Thanks Garry