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  #151  
Old 10-06-17, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William View Post
Hi Ron & Toby,
Continuing the subject of forage cap badges : This background detail from a contemporary Ackerman print of a group of the 42nd dated March 1854 shows ORs of the regiment wearing a large wm thistle on their Kilmarnock caps ... not numerals !?
I have not seen any reference to this badge anywhere else, but cannot believe this is pure "fantasy" since this series were renowned for their accuracy. Regards Jeff

Attachment 171896
That's extremely interesting, Jeff, I have neither seen nor heard of such a badge before. It seems likely to have been worn for only a short time. I wonder if it was a badge worn just by one of the flank companies, with the centre companies wearing numerals. It's very intriguing.
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  #152  
Old 11-06-17, 12:13 PM
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The Ackerman print was from an engraving "after B.Clayton." The Clayton image as seen in full has several anomalies. The man in your detail, Jeff, is missing his sergeant's stripes. An officer in undress is wearing a cap with a band of dicing and I am curious as to the circumstances under which, at that date, he would wear a red shell jacket with the kilt rather than trews.

Col. John Wheatley mentions orders, for officers only it would appear, to adopt "the regular forage cap in 1826, first introduced with a broad top, and stiff in appearance, with an embroidered thistle in front." (Keltie, 1875)

Wheatley's dates appear to be a little astray but it would seem he is referring to an order of 1829 to adopt a forage cap corresponding "with that of the rest of the Army, with this distinction, that the Band, instead of being the colour of the facing, should be the Tartan of the regiment." (CIRCULAR Horse Guards 18th March 1829 -Memorandum)

As we know, officers of the 42nd eventually adopted caps with a band of Government tartan and lace with an embroidered thistle motif. Whether Wheatley was referring to that or to an emblem resembling that on the Kilmarnock caps in Clayton's painting, it looks like further research is required.
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  #153  
Old 11-06-17, 03:44 PM
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Default 42nd Piper & group March 1854

Hi jf
Many thanks for the additional information. I was not aware of the various details you kindly posted, not having seen the HG Memo to which you refer, tho' as you say, further research re this is definitely required. I must admit I had assumed a wm thistle badge but I guess it could well be embroidered.
Full picture and titles attached for your perusal. Regards. Jeff

42F Piper & group March 1854.jpg
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  #154  
Old 11-06-17, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rmarsden View Post
Thanks to all for the information.
Pic of Scots Fusileer Guards Sgt in 1865.
This badge seems to be different to the standard star shape?
I believe he may have moved during the photo, making the cap star look slightly blurred. IMHO
Andy
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  #155  
Old 12-06-17, 04:19 PM
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Hi jf
Having given some thought to your interesting observations re the Ackerman print, I would agree that indeed there are a few apparent discrepancies that need to be discussed:
(1) First, the missing sergeants stripes. I agree this does appear to be an oversight on the part of Clayton who of course was mainly concentrating on the central figure viz, the piper.
As far as the cap badge is concerned tho', this is duplicated on the ORs cap behind him, and thus I think rules out the possibility that this was a Sergeant (or Sen NCOs) embellishment only.

(2) Moving on to the two officers on the left : As you say the officer in "undress" requires our attention. The fact that he is wearing a kilt with the shell-jacket is, to say the least unusual, although with regard to trews, I notice Dress Regs for the period state these are worn "... on those occasions on which the kilt is not worn ..." but does not specify what these occasions are, thus presumably leaving these decisions initially to General Orders or the discretion of the Colonel or the individual officers ??

(3) With regard to the diced band on the officer's forage cap ; Here again Dress Regs are misleading. The term "diced band" for caps and bonnets was not used in DRs until 1864. Prior to this these headbands were always referred to as "tartan" whether describing the feathered bonnet or the forage cap. Very misleading !
Presumably, circa 1854, officers of the 42nd took this directive literally in the case of their forage caps, although they were the only Scottish regiment to do so. This sketch could be before that date. (?)

I admit, these are just my thoughts on the matter and may (or may not) explain the various discrepancies which you have observed. Unfortunately I do not have access to any GO's of the period but would be interested to know if anyone can substantiate or contest my theories. Regards. Jeff

Last edited by Jeff Mc William; 12-06-17 at 05:55 PM.
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  #156  
Old 12-06-17, 09:22 PM
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Indeed, Jeff. I steered around the murky subject of nomenclature and the word 'tartan' as used in relation to Scottish military headgear, not only in official Army publications but also by Col. John Wheatley, late 42nd- or at least as interpreted by William Melven in his updating of the Military Annals section in John Keltie's 1875 revision of Stewart's Sketches of the Highlanders (1822) Here is a selection of references to the period 1822-1852.

1822-1826: "The undress in barracks was in general a light gray long frock coat; but leaving the barracks, the officers invariably appeared in the coatee and a tartan bonnet without feathers, with a short red heckle in front, confined by a gold ring about one-third up. This handy bonnet was also worn on the line of march with the coatee. It was replaced in 1825* by a tartan shako , with black silk cord ornaments and heavy red ostrich plume, which again gave way to the regular forage cap in 1826, first introduced with a broad top, and stiff in appearance, with an embroidered thistle in front."

( Col. John Wheatley, late 42nd RHR, quoted in John Keltie History of the Highlands 1st Ed. 1875)

1831 Officers Forage cap of blue cloth, with a band and welt of regimental tartan
Regs. (Dress Regulations, 1831)

1834 Officers Forage cap with a band of regimental bonnet tartan with an embroidered thistle (Dress Regulations, 1834 quoted in Scottish Military Uniforms Wilkinson-Latham 1975 p.50-51)

1846 Dress Regulations: Offrs forage cap with a red seam round the crown; band of regimental bonnet tartan

1851 "All kilted regts to discontinue wearing undress bonnet [Kilmarnock] and wear a glengarry bonnet ‘with Regimental band or border the same as on the bonnet.’ Other Highland regiments to wear forage cap ‘of the same form as the rest of the infantry, with the Regimental National band or border.’ (quoted in Wilkinson-Latham, 1975 )

"(except for the 79th). This order was ignored by the 42nd.” (Michael Barthorp, British Infantry Uniforms, 1986)

1852 Highland Officers peaked forage cap with diced band - except the 42nd: ‘Government tartan’ band on Officers’ forage cap. (Wilkinson-Latham 1975)
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  #157  
Old 13-06-17, 08:21 AM
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JF, it is interesting to note that on the dates you have quoted for uniform changes.
1831, 42nd in Gibraltar, Malta.
1834, Ionian Islands not returning to Scotland untill 1836.
1846, Malta, Bermuda, Nova Scotia not returning to Scotland untill 1852.
I think it would have been difficult to keep up with the changes, and they would have worn whatever suited the climate they were in. Also given the expense and logistical difficulties in obtaining new gear they might just not bother.
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  #158  
Old 13-06-17, 08:08 PM
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Ron, indeed. It is always interesting to relate changes ordered for regulation uniform to where a given corps might have been stationed at the time. I often wonder how pleased the men of the 5th Northumberland in Malta were to learn in 1835 that thenceforward they were to parade in bearskin fusilier caps. Like the 42nd in much the same period, they were posted to successvie Mediterranean stations till 1843- when, with impeccable timing, the fur caps were replaced by shakos with falling plumes.

In that list of orders I posted earlier relating to forage caps for Scottish regiments, it would seem that the key date would be 1829 when the new forage cap was prescribed for officers' undress. The references that follow were simply confirming the order in successive regulations until 1852 when the shape of the cap changed. So from 1829 it would simply have been a matter of time until the existing model of headgear needed to be replaced- unless officers were happy to obtain what might have been a more convenient piece of headgear sooner rather than later.
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  #159  
Old 19-06-17, 09:26 AM
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Unmatched pair of Imperial crown collar badges 1874-78.
Worn by other regiments also.
Ch 333.
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  #160  
Old 26-06-17, 08:12 AM
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Small brass button 5/8th" diameter closed back marked Firmin London copper shank intact. Shell jacket cuff button?
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  #161  
Old 19-07-17, 12:50 PM
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Another silver prize medallion, this one won by Bandsman Musgrove.
1st Bn were at the Curragh in 1907.

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  #162  
Old 29-07-17, 08:30 AM
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French & Indian War 1754-62.
Open backed pewter button in relic condition found near Fort Crown Point 1960s. The 42nd had two spells at the Fort in 1758 and again in 1762. Bottom photo shows how button should look.

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  #163  
Old 16-08-17, 10:00 AM
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Shooting prize in silver/gilt and enamel, by Benjamin Ninnes assayed Birmingham 1921. Awarded to Sgt A.G.Brown E Coy 1922. 1st Bn were stationed in Allahbad at that time.
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  #164  
Old 31-08-17, 04:15 PM
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Ron, would it be possible to tell me the measurements of the Kilmarnock "42" numerals please. Also is the size more or less consistent or do you think there is a large variation?

Thanks

Bryan
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  #165  
Old 31-08-17, 08:04 PM
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Bryan, numerals measure 1" x 1.5". Size does not vary much on any of my examples.
Ron.
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