WWII HMS Cap Tally?

[Phill Lockett]

Hi all

Would this be a WWII or post WWII cap tally.

I have searched the forum but none the wiser (as I have had with my other cloth titles posts).

The tally is 3cm in height and as per photo is there a difference if the spacing is any indicator( wide or narrow) to determine WWII or Post WWII?

Also the woven style "H . M . S ." an indicator?

The tape does feel smoother, compared to my WWII Royal Marines cash tape.

As this is my first Tally I do not have another to compare.

Cheers

Phill

[Alex Rice]

That looks like WWII to me. After the war they would have started adding the names of the ships after the HMS so unlikely to be post-WWII. I believe the sea-cadets used HMS tallies as well but they are slightly different.
Cheers,
Alex

[Phill Lockett]

Much appreciated Alex.

Still new to British WWII cloth insignia, I fear sometimes that I will get a 1950's cloth insignia thinking WWII era!

I have seen the closer H.M.S. tallies which have WWII ID'ed, I take it there would of been several different manufacturing styles during the war?

Any other opinion welcomed , good bad or indifferent!

cheers

Phill

[RBJ MIlitaria]

it is very hard to date cap tallies as WW2 or pre as they were ordered in the thousands and were in stores for years and produced right up to recent years, at least the weave is not shiny or all the way across the back which would denote a modern version

[Nozzer]

Hi Phill,

As has already been stated, these "HMS" tallies or ribbons are hard to date. I have shown below a few of what I believe were worn in the WW2 period to illustrate the variety used and are as found.

Here is some information in an earlier thread regarding their use during WW2

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...7&postcount=14

Andy

[Nozzer]

Below are two types of ribbons still packaged.

The top lot are in a sealed plastic bag and date from the period 1984 to about 2004. The second lot are a little harder, but I would guess from the period at the end or just after the War. The label would suggest 1978, but that is the date that they were examined and re packaged. Also shown is one of the boxes that these ribbons came in.

The 1978 re packaged ribbons are the most common that you will find for sale as WW2 period tallies. Note that the box indicates that they are RAYON, which I understand has been around since the 1920's which doesn't really help with dating.

[Phill Lockett]

Thank you Nozzer

I appreciate the response.

Yes Rayon was used up to the early mid 50's for US patches and once polyester/nylon thread became commercially available due to mass production, colour fastness, more colour variation and stronger thread replaced rayon , well at least for the US side of patch construction.

cheers mate

Phill

[Alex Rice]

Hi Andy
Lovely collection of HMS tallies! Unfortunately only the top half of the image opens in the large scale, but it looks good anyway. One of the reasons I think that tally is WWII period is the edging of needle holes/hem along the ribbon. I tend to associate that with WWII period tallies, though I expect they were used after the war as well.
I have a printed HMS tally in a box somewhere as well, which I think is quite rare but unfortunately it is severely moth-eaten.
Cheers,
Alex

[Guzzman]

It is worth remebering that 'HMS' tallies were still being issued during the Falklands War in 1982. The Royal Navy crews assigned to the deep-sea trawlers taken-up from trade and used as minesweepers, such as the 'Northella', were issued with HMS tallies.

And personnel sentenced to serve a period of detention in the Royal Naval Detention Quarters were issued with 'HMS' tallies right up to the time the RNDQs closed in the late 1990s.

Pete

[leigh kitchen]

Although not to hand, I have at least one tally that has "HMS" applied in what appears to be gold coloured card, glued to the black fabric.
Are these genuine ("economy" WWII?) or a known fake or film prop?

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks for all the replies

As per RBJ , Nozzer and Alex looks like the WWII era tallies have been reissued for and used in later years.

As Nozzer has pointed out, Rayon is a an excellent point to make ,which would denote WWI-WWII(+)era, compared to recent polyester/nylon (maybe last 30 years?) made.

Thanks for the education, I do appreciate the replies,especially when its way out of my area!!

Phill