info on NAVAL ARMOURED TRAINS badge

[dukedford]

This is a Royal Naval Armoured Trains collar badge worn in addition to other RN badges on Ratings uniform type III

[Guzzman]

These badges have been discussed many times on this site and there has never really been any agreement on their authenticity.

Yes, the Royal Navy did operate armoured trains in Belgium in September - October 1914. The trains were actually Belgian and the Royal Navy provided guns and gun crews. The three trains operated were H.M.A.T. CHURCHILL, H.M.A.T. JELLICOE and H.M.A.T. DE GUISE, the latter named after General De Guise - the commander of the Belgian Army.

Cap tallies bearing the above names were issued to ratings serving on the trains.

The thing which generally causes concern about these badges is that there is no record of them ever being issued (not in itself unusual) and there are no images or photographs of them ever being worn. They do seem to turn up relatively frequently but no evidence of exactly what they are or when they were actually produced has ever been given. I am not doubting the authenticity of these badges (I have been collecting RN insignia too long to do that!) but I would approach them with caution. Everyone quotes May as having them in his book as if that means they are fully authenticated but all he has is a line drawing of the badge and states that it was worn by the crews of naval armoured trains! And over the years May has been proven to be far from infallible. I would certainly want to see some evidence before I paid out for one of these.

If you do a search for 'Naval Armoured Trains' on the site search engine you should find the previous discussions on this badge.

Pete

[Eddie Parks]

Why would anyone think the Crabs were an authority on anything? Especially anything involving a degree of classical education?

[royston]

I'm not certain I agree with Guzzman that the badge turns up relatively frequently. I have only seen five over 24 years and I have two. I agree that there are no photographs of them being worn, the ratings on the trains wore naval "square rig" so probably would not have worn an additional metal badge (see photographs in the book naval guns in Flanders). I am at a loss to know who wore them but mine are both of excellent construction and showing their age. Again any photographs would be welcome.

John

[Hussar100]

There's a previous thread on the subject here. which gives a few links and books to check up on. Seems pretty conclusive to me.

And here's the IWM description of the very same badge.

[Guzzman]

Hi All!

I'm not doubting that these are genuine badges at all. I'm merely stating that we need to know more about them. We have no evidence to say who actually wore them or even how they were worn - were they only worn by officers or were they worn by officers and senior rates, etc? Were they worn as collar badges or in some other way? When were they issued? We know none of this. The Imperial War Museum are not infallible. They are only as good as the information they have. I have a badge which they say existed but was never issued to anyone. My badge is attached to an original uniform so obviously at least one WAS issued! Information re these badges has now slipped from living memory so we are forced to rely on documentary evidence and photographs - and in this case there is none. I honestly wish we could find some somewhere!

As I say I do not doubt that these badges are connected with the Naval Armoured Trains in some way but no-one seems to know how. To simply say that they were worn by personnel serving on these trains is not enough. Where does that information come from? What evidence do we have?

As to my comment that these badges seem to turn up reasonably often, well I think that considering the relatively small number of RN personnel attached to these trains (the trains themselves being operated by Belgians) and the very brief period that they were operational, five badges in twenty-five years is pretty good!

I'm not trying to offend anyone by saying this. I really do believe they are genuine and that they are connected with the Naval Armoured Trains in some way but just saying 'they are because they are' is not good enough. We just need to know more about these badges.

Regards (and really not wanting to cause offence!)

Pete

[Hussar100]

did you follow the links I gave?

[Guzzman]

Yes I did follow your links.

The IWM link describes the badge and states that it was worn in connection with the Naval Armoured Train. I know that already and I never doubted it. It doesn't state when it was introduced, who wore it (which personnel), how it was worn, or answer any of the other questions about the badge.

The other link tells us about the Naval Armoured Trains. I know they existed. I know the badges exist. I know there is a link between them. All I am saying is that we have no documentary or photographic evidence to answer the questions shown above.

As badge collectors are we only interested in collecting bits of metal or do we want to answer these questions? I know from the lengthy debates that go on on this site that we do want to find out all we can about particular badges so what is wrong with wanting to find out about this one!

As any attempt at discussing this is obviously a waste of time I will end here. And I will also leave the site for good. Any attempt at promoting a debate is obviously pointless.

Pete

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by Guzzman

Yes I did follow your links.

The IWM link describes the badge and states that it was worn in connection with the Naval Armoured Train. I know that already and I never doubted it. It doesn't state when it was introduced, who wore it (which personnel), how it was worn, or answer any of the other questions about the badge.

The other link tells us about the Naval Armoured Trains. I know they existed. I know the badges exist. I know there is a link between them. All I am saying is that we have no documentary or photographic evidence to answer the questions shown above.

As badge collectors are we only interested in collecting bits of metal or do we want to answer these questions? I know from the lengthy debates that go on on this site that we do want to find out all we can about particular badges so what is wrong with wanting to find out about this one!

As any attempt at discussing this is obviously a waste of time I will end here. And I will also leave the site for good. Any attempt at promoting a debate is obviously pointless.

Pete

You leave me speechless. Why would you want to leave the site because I asked you if you had read my links?

In addition I think several members, including myself, stepped in, did a bit of research, and generally tried to help. I supplied a number of links, including one to a previous thread and my opinion is that you would have gleaned some information from what was discussed beyond what you already knew.

Throwing teddy out of your pram isn't what you should be doing now but, if (like me and several others) you're inclined to do so then your best way forward is to do what you normally do when something annoys you like kicking a door or the dog and then when you have gotten over it come back and enjoy the very obvious friendliness and willingness to help which I know exists on this site.

You see I'm not a collector; I'm an historian, and my presence on this site is to learn about collecting and other aspects which it throws up as well as sharing knowledge with other members on whatever commons interests arise. As a result I spend much of my day poring over Google or my own extensive collection of books - trying to find useful information for other contributors on this site. To have you react in the way you've done to my best efforts is, quite frankly, a little disappointing.

Remember, nobody here owes anything to anyone else; information wise that is. We do what we do because of a common interest. Most times we manage to help but occasionally we don't have the right information to hand.

The fact I've spent such a long time composing this reply should illustrate to you that I'm prepared to devote some of my energies to helping a fellow member?

Now work it off and then please come back to the forum. Is that fair enough?

[navyfred]

I've found this badge and comments facinating. I've collected RN badges since I was a lad and have never seen this one before.

It is threads like this that keep the interest in badge collecting alive and interesting.It has raised my awareness and I will now keep my eyes and mind open to look for evidence of its wear. Hopefully I will find some oneday and share it with others.

A good read and thanks to all that have contributed.

fred