16th Armoured Brigade signs

[irish]

A recent addition. A matched pair of 16th Armoured formation signs sewn to khaki squares, removed from uniform. These look to be Italian made based on the weave. Enjoy
thanks
Jack

[Mike Jackson]

I cannot imagine how Howard Cole got this identification so wrong back in 1940s. It's the sign of 21 Army Tk Bde - the "red devil" is actually a gremlin - and the signs shown - outstanding examples - were made in a silk factory in Caserta, Italy. The square KD backing is to make the signs easier to wear on a KD shirt in the Italian summer.
21 Army Tk Bde.01.jpg

[irish]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

I cannot imagine how Howard Cole got this identification so wrong back in 1940s. It's the sign of 21 Army Tk Bde - the "red devil" is actually a gremlin - and the signs shown - outstanding examples - were made in a silk factory in Caserta, Italy. The square KD backing is to make the signs easier to wear on a KD shirt in the Italian summer.
Attachment 196003

Uh oh, Cole’s book is exactly where my I’d came from. So 21 Tank Brigade then. Was I the only one that did not know this designation was incorrect?
Thanks
Jack

[leigh kitchen]

Er er - yes...... well, ahem, maybe not...........

[irish]

In the defense, do you think this was a possible book editing issue?

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

I cannot imagine how Howard Cole got this identification so wrong back in 1940s. It's the sign of 21 Army Tk BdeAttachment 196003

Who then wore his 21st Army tank Bde badge, a black diabolo on yellow/red shield?

Rgds, Thomas

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

Who then wore his 21st Army tank Bde badge, a black diabolo on yellow/red shield?

Rgds, Thomas

As far as I know there is (or was) only one example in captivity - printed and it came to the collector with some RASC insignia. I've also seen an image of the sign on the rear armour of a British Army White Halftrack in Forli, Italy.
21 Army Tk Bde Forli.jpg

[fougasse1940]

So it is an unknown badge?

Rgds, Thomas

[Mike Jackson]

It could possibly have been an interim pattern sign worn while the final, "Gremlin" pattern sign was being designed, approved and produced? Interestingly there was no Armoured, Tank or Army Tank Brigade with the number 16 in the British Army Orbat in WW2. So was it simply a Howard Cole typo that has been perpetuated?l

[Mike Jackson]

To further muddy the waters, this image came from a series of shields, probably late war period, bearing very small scale c 12mm square painted representation of formation signs and many unidentified RASC unit signs. The diablo on shield hints at 25 Tk Bde bearing the maple Leaf awarded by the Canadians. None of the signs on the shields are identified and the overall condition is poor.
25 Tk Bde.03.jpg

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

It could possibly have been an interim pattern sign worn while the final, "Gremlin" pattern sign was being designed, approved and produced? Interestingly there was no Armoured, Tank or Army Tank Brigade with the number 16 in the British Army Orbat in WW2. So was it simply a Howard Cole typo that has been perpetuated?l

Mike, thank you for your insights, most enlightening. So, most likely 21st Army Tank Brigade had quite a few different badges, including the final(?) gremlin one. Re: 16, note I didn't ask what their sign might have been in lieu of the gremlin one, knowing no 16th existed, so yes, probably down to Cole's error.

Rgds, Thomas

[irish]

Mike your insight and knowledge is much appreciated as always.
Best
Jack

[Mike Jackson]

Thanks. Even the War Office was confused by all these equilateral traingles - as this extract indicates:

21 Army Tank Brigade Two yellow equilateral triangles meeting at apices, the upper one inverted Amdt 1 Mar 41 Addition
Amdt 2 Jun 41: for yellow substitute blue

[fearnaught]

Hi, the War Office was probably right. Peter Gudgin in his history of the 48th RTR states that the new sign was introduced by the new brigade commander, in the summer 1944, to show it was under new management. They had just done a large exercise called "Gremlin". The sign was designed by Capt. Tom Corringe of A Squadron, Capt Maurice Ladd had them made up in a silk factory near Caserta. They were issued in pairs with the gremlin facing forward. The blue of this sign was a lighter blue than that of the previous dark blue Army tank brigade diabolo About the same time he states the coloured epaulette strips of the RTR were reintroduced. Hope this helps, best wishes Mike

[fearnaught]

Hi Mike, I think the black diabolo on red/yellow sign was made by one of the officers at the end of the war when 25th Armoured Brigade became 25th Armoured Engineer Brigade. I've only seen one and I think it was painted, certainly there were very few made. I've also included my example of the 21st, purely because I like it, best wishes Mike