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#16
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4th CLY
As I understand it the small "collar" on the right was worn as a beret badge.
Rob |
#17
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That cap badge, I can think of an expletive to put in the middle.
The more I see and read about this badge, the more I'm convinced the 'full size' 4 in nickel and worn in the cap/beret only existed as an officers badge. Whilst the gilding metal one piece pattern 3rd CLY, along with the bi-metal XXIII and the CLY existed as large, I've yet to see 4 in that size other than the Gaunt Officers one, other than cast ones as per the OP. However although rare, the smaller W&H version with the clumsy 4 does appear fairly frequently. K&K isn't much help, the illustration 2289 may well be the bi-metal badge (collar?) shown by PeterA, bearing in mind the NIH badge shown on the same row is smaller than any of the CLY illustrated along side it. |
#18
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Hi Peter, I can think of a plausible reason why the collars appear more than the beret badge. The beret is much easier to lose than the collars on the BD. On RTU, The luckless individual would be told to get a new beret from stores, but if they were short of cap badges (as it seems with this unit) a private purchase of a sand cast version down at the souq would remedy the problem. The letter 4 on the sand cast badge also looks sand cast (as it should be). I don't think galvanising the WM from an existing collar was the practice on the evidence from that badge.
Cheers, Gaz |
#19
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Hi Peter, I quite like it, it has ME lugs but as with all cast badges the question always is, who cast it? As far as I know the W&H badges only came in one size, different finishes. These were copied in the ME, if you compare the lugs on these you will see they look like your badge. The Gaunt made badges were when they came back here, I think, and as they were quickly disbanded in Normandy there are not many of them, though they again come in different finishes and there does appear to be some officers' cap badges of the same size as the 3rd CLY. This would make sense as they made them as well, all they had to do was change the central device. A good indication is the single dot at the base, earlier types had four dots in a cross shape. Mike
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#20
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Quote:
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#21
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delved into the cardboard box to look at the CLY version and noticed that it shares the same manufacturers stamp flaw as the Dutch lion
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#22
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...and yet another variation on the 4CLY cap badge from a US dealer on ebay.
It is cap badge size 1.625" tall. The '4' is bright and polished but is not a white metal attachment but part of the basic casting that has been re-finished in silver (?) by presumably local plating. The '4' is beveled on the left side as a genuine 'regular 4' cap badge (an omission on the well known fake), but has the tags on the horizontal and vertical as the 'stylised 4' on the smaller collar. The lugs are larger diameter and squat than normal by my judgment but well engineered in their attachment. The finish is over bright than one would expect from a 60/70 year old badge but the whole assembly may have been gold plated. This is either a slightly over priced fake or an absolute snip for a cavalry officer's personal 'manufactured in theatre' item. Either way as a sole Sharpshooter collector I was pleased to add it to the 'funnies' in my collection. Any comments on the style of construction and finish that could give a clue? PeterA |
#23
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Assuming that this badge was made locally whilst 4CLY were 18 months in North Africa, it would seem that the casting pattern was made by utilising the base of the cast version of the 3CLY badge with the white metal 'CLY' removed.
The witness mark were the 'CLY' was inserted and peened over can clearly be seen. As has been mentioned before there is a dearth of genuine 4CLY cap badges compared to the relative abundance of the the 4CLY collars, to the point where the collar was worn as a cap badge in service. PeterA |
#24
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Hi Peter, mine is identical to your latest one, other than the lugs are longer and yours appears to have been cleaned up a bit more enthusiastically. There are file cuts above the nose of the 4 and also on the upright of the 4. The nose of the 4 has the same diagonal cut which is different from W&H badges, also the ends of the 4 are more square than the curved ends of the W&H 4s. All this tends to point to some hand made imput which would make me think more of arab manufacture. I think I posted a picture of my badge on the last thread about 4 CLY. Mike
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#25
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Interesting thread, I have seen cast large badges with the ghost of the Gaunt marks on the back but passed them over thinking they may be fake, I will have to look out for one or an original officers fourth
here is a picture of the small collar-cap bought last week and a few other related bits for interest, Kev |
#26
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#27
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Yet another variation on the 4 CLY cap badge.
Full size at 1.7" tall. Cast with reasonable crisp Gaunt markings . '4' brazed on rather than cast as one. Slight trace of silver finish on '4'. Dark Bronze..almost a lacquered finish North/South lugs. Fake...but why? Officers special? Over to you. PeterA |
#28
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Well!
Zero comment on my 4 CLY badge, a couple of posts back. Does this mean it is not worthy, as a fake, or nobody knows or has an opinion? A close study of the badge with a glass shows a witness mark, indicated below, that I think is where a white metal 'CLY' (3 CLY) has been removed and a '4' substituted. This could be a 3 CLY 1939-44 pattern badge that has been modified and fits well with the dearth of genuine production 4 CLY hat badges in the field, discussed on this forum, and witness the number of substitutes - collars, fancy '4' variants etc. PeterA |
#29
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Hi Peter, as this is a Gaunt badge there would be no need to cast one. Whilst they were in England they would have been readily available and they were only a few weeks in Europe. For this reason I have been suspicious of any cast Gaunt badge, and you your badge is a casting of the Gaunt officer's badge. I think you may have answered your question in that it is a casting of the CLY badge which was readily available post-war. Most of the cast badges are usually typical N. African manufacture, any others I am again rather suspicious of. Hope you are well, Mike
Last edited by fearnaught; 18-01-14 at 05:54 PM. |
#30
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4 CLY Battledress
This BD was recently on Ebay, with full regimental insignia including the 4 CLY collars. I had opened the bidding on it but my bid was cancelled when the seller, possibly with low morals, accepted an offer. Nice set though.
Lee http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-WWII-...p2047675.l2557 |
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