Somerset Militia

[Alan O]

I don't like to quibble but where is the evidence that the 2nd Bn wore the TF SA scroll badge?

Alan

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I don't like to quibble but where is the evidence that the 2nd Bn wore the TF SA scroll badge?

Alan

Yes I agree Alan I was still editing. I hadn’t spotted the badge that Henk originally posted for the 4th and assume it might have been one of the VB. I don’t know if the 4th Battalion ever wore any insignia with SA honour. I suppose it’s probable that both Militia battalions had the badge with Laurel Spray, just as both regular battalions wore the same badge. That seems more likely I think.

It’s all rather messy and I can’t yet find clearly if both 1st and 2nd VB deployed service companies to South Africa. Do you know?

It’s significant in relation to the South Africa honour because when the two VB stood down and were replaced by 4th and 5th TF battalion’s in 1908, the company locations were not distributed identically to before, but reorganised so that 4th and 5th each received company locations from 1st and 2nd VB. As a result both 4th and 5th inherited the “South Africa 1900-01” honour (one year less than the Militia).

Given that both 1st and 2nd VB had previously had discrete badges pre Boer War (both cap and collar), why was it that after the war only 2nd VB had a badge with its unit designation plus the South Africa honour, but 1st VB did not? Instead there’s just a standard badge with no unit designation plus the South Africa honour. This seems odd. Could it be that the latter badge was for the 4th Battalion (Militia), and that only 2nd VB had deployed men to South Africa? However, a key aspect is that apparently (assuming no mistake**) the 4th Battalion (Militia) received the two-year South Africa 1901-1902 honour, whereas the badge only shows 1900-01, which leans towards a VB solution.

I’ve scoured Kipling and King and Ray Westlake to try and unravel this, but haven’t yet fathomed it out. All help gratefully received. The crux of the matter is did both 1st and 2nd VB receive the battle Honour “South Africa 1900-01”? Exactly what support did Somerset’s auxiliaries give to the 2nd Boer War.

Source: ‘The Constitutional Force’ by Colonel Jackson Hay.

[Wmr-RHB]

I have now restored to the original status. Thus all can see what the discussion is about.

(Again, when you looked at the page recently, you may have to use the Reload function of your browser to refresh the cache).

Militia Somersetshire

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Yes I agree Alan I was still editing. I hadn’t spotted the badge that Henk originally posted for the 4th and assume it might have been one of the VB. I don’t know if the 4th Battalion ever wore any insignia with SA honour. I suppose it’s probable that both Militia battalions had the badge with Laurel Spray, just as both regular battalions wore the same badge. That seems more likely I think.

It’s all rather messy and I can’t yet find clearly if both 1st and 2nd VB deployed service companies to South Africa. Do you know?

It’s significant in relation to the South Africa honour because when the two VB stood down and were replaced by 4th and 5th TF battalion’s in 1908, the company locations were not distributed identically to before, but reorganised so that 4th and 5th each received company locations from 1st and 2nd VB. As a result both 4th and 5th inherited the “South Africa 1900-01” honour (one year less than the Militia).

Given that both 1st and 2nd VB had previously had discrete badges pre Boer War (both cap and collar), why was it that after the war only 2nd VB had a badge with its unit designation plus the South Africa honour, but 1st VB did not? Instead there’s just a standard badge with no unit designation plus the South Africa honour. This seems odd. Could it be that the latter badge was for the 4th Battalion (Militia), and that only 2nd VB had deployed men to South Africa?

I’ve scoured Kipling and King and Ray Westlake to try and unravel this, but haven’t yet fathomed it out. All help gratefully received. The crux of the matter is did both 1st and 2nd VB receive the battle Honour “South Africa 1900-01”?

I believe it was only the 2nd Militia Bn who went to SA as a formed unit. They were awarded the SA honour but the 1st was not. I am sure the 1st sent individual reinforcements but not as a formed unit.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I believe it was only the 2nd Militia Bn who went to SA as a formed unit. They were awarded the SA honour but the 1st was not. I am sure the 1st sent individual reinforcements but not as a formed unit.

Thanks Alan but I think you have crossed wires perhaps. The Militia battalions were numbered 3rd and 4th and I already made clear up thread that only the 4th went and that they stayed for two years.

The VB were numbered separately sequentially as 1st and 2nd. Each individual county regiment was asked by the war office to find one ‘service company’ of ‘volunteers’ (VB) for one year’s service in SA. The question is was that service company furnished as a composite by both VB, or was it provided just by 2nd VB whose badge is so clearly delineated?

[Alan O]

Agreed up to 1881 1st ad 2nd but after that the 3rd and 4th Bns. The original question was refering to 1st and 2nd so I continued with it.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Thanks Alan but I think you have crossed wires perhaps. The Militia battalions were numbered 3rd and 4th and I already made clear up thread that only the 4th went and that they stayed for two years.

The VB were numbered separately sequentially as 1st and 2nd. Each individual county regiment was asked by the war office to find one ‘service company’ of ‘volunteers’ (VB) for one year’s service in SA. The question is was that service company furnished as a composite by both VB, or was it provided just by 2nd VB whose badge is so clearly delineated?

Originally Posted by Alan O

Agreed up to 1881 1st ad 2nd but after that the 3rd and 4th Bns. The original question was refering to 1st and 2nd so I continued with it.

You were quoting and responding to my previous post were you not? Where I carried on from the previous page 3rd and 4th Militia Battalions and 1st and 2nd VB.

Anyway more importantly the Militia deployment had already been mentioned and I’d posted who deployed including the CO and the battalion strength so you were repeating what is already known, albeit i realise that was a misunderstanding of what I was asking.

What I was asking from you and anyone one else who might be interested is if you know whether one or both volunteer battalions provided men for the VB service company that deployed for one year?

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

... if you know whether one or both volunteer battalions provided men for the VB service company that deployed for one year?

Sorry, but I am a bit lost now.

We started with Militia (either before 1881 as 1st and 2nd, or after as 3rg and 4th, or both) and now we are talking about the VBs. And there are two mentioned here. But there were three of them (1st, 2nd and 3rd). And in 1908 there emerged two TF battaions out of them (4th and 5th).

Somerset

[Toby Purcell]

So far I’ve been able to ascertain that the Somerset Light Infantry provided justification a single volunteer service company with regimental numbers as shown: 1 VS Coy - 3/130/1 - 6781-6915 (source Boer-War.Com).

Also Somerset Archive of South West Heritage Trust holds a Photograph of a contingent of the 2nd Volunteer battalion who served in the Boer War. c. 1900.

They also hold a file that contains a list of those in the 4th battalion, and 2nd volunteer battalion who were awarded medals and clasps for the Boer War, 1899-1902, casualty list of the 2nd battalion during the Boer War. Consists of photocopies of the medal roll held at The National Archives, and hand-written indexes, arranged by battalion and then alphabetically, probably made in the late 20th century.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB

Sorry, but I am a bit lost now.

We started with Militia (either before 1881 as 1st and 2nd, or after as 3rg and 4th, or both) and now we are talking about the VBs. And there are two mentioned here. But there were three of them (1st, 2nd and 3rd). And in 1908 there emerged two TF battaions out of them (4th and 5th).

Somerset

Please put the Militia aside. Their service in SA is crystal clear.

All I’m trying to ascertain is which VBs furnished men for the single volunteer service company provided and that deployed. I’ve explained why that might be significant up thread. In short was it just 2nd VB (regardless of how many VB there were) that provided men.

It’s more likely that they all did, but that wasn’t always the case with other regiments. It’s relevant because all VB that provided men should subsequently have received the SA honour on their individual unit badges.

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Please put the Militia aside. Their service in SA is crystal clear.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB

Thanks for the clarification.

Henk I’m trying to clarify whether or not 4th Somersetshire LI Militia ever changed their badge to include the South African honour, by going through a process of elimination. So far the only very slight evidence is circumstantial and really undermined by the fact that all the badges with honour scrolls give the date 1900-01. That date configuration was only awarded to the Volunteer Service Company formed from the VB. The Militia honour was very specifically granted as 1900-1902 because the 4th served two-years in SA. I’ve yet to finish investigating matters but it looks likely to me that just as the two Regular battalions wore identical badges so too did the two Militia battalions before the 2nd Boer War. Ergo your display would better show the laurels spray for both 3rd and 4th Battalions.

So far it looks unlikely that the 4th (Militia) battalion wore a badge with SA honour after the 2nd Boer war for several reasons. First the old Queen died in 1901 and new helmet badges for the battalion in 1902 started to include the JELLALABAD honour. Secondly so too did the badges that were inscribed on 4th battalion memorials to those who died or were killed in South Africa. Finally, as part of reorganisation and reductions in the years after the war the Militia reduced to just a single battalion of Special Reserve in 1908. Both auxiliary forces (Militia and Volunteers) had haemorrhaged men after the war, with almost 20,000 lost from the VB by 1903, and a similar decline in membership of the Militia.

[Wmr-RHB]

I am following this with interest indeed.

[Alan O]

Toby

Looking at the slidered 1 VB badge you show above, I suspect it is a fake and the Jellabad title is incorrect. Some one has added a 1st Volunteer Scroll to a standard SLI badge as they also do with Dorestshires and Cornwall.

Alan

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Toby

Looking at the slidered 1 VB badge you show above, I suspect it is a fake and the Jellabad title is incorrect. Some one has added a 1st Volunteer Scroll to a standard SLI badge as they also do with Dorestshires and Cornwall.

Alan

Okay thanks Alan, that’s an interesting thought. Interestingly it’s shown at this link and intriguingly a very similar scroll is attached to the bottom of some DCLI badges too: https://www.britisharmedforces.org/p...reg_badges.htm
Lots of opportunity for conspiracy theorists. Sadly there doesn’t seem to be a dedicated publication devoted to VB badges, or Militia for that matter.