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#16
03-10-16, 05:24 PM
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GTB 
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#17
03-10-16, 06:25 PM
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Some more artists impressions to consider!
Tim
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm" "Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!" "Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest."
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#18
03-10-16, 06:35 PM
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Dont be influenced by the Crown size on certain badges illustrated, they are just impressions. The Driver & Crown badge does indeed come with a small crown and a Large Crown but they are merely manufacturers variations and nothing more. Your badge definately incorporates a Rank Crown, either for a SNCO or WO. regards
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Simon Butterworth Manchester Regiment Collector Rank, Prize & Trade Badges British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
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#19
03-10-16, 06:37 PM
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Maintaining my view that it might be Grenadier Guards as the Colour Sergeants crown was large and the positioning of the badges was tight!
Another artists impression here. http://www.britishempire.co.uk/force...adier1914f.htm Tim
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm" "Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!" "Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest."
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#20
03-10-16, 07:43 PM
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Tim,
A lovely picture. Also later worn on the lower right sleeve on BD when appointed as CSM's. regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth Manchester Regiment Collector Rank, Prize & Trade Badges British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
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#21
03-10-16, 07:52 PM
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Right you are, Tim, although it could be put down to Artist's impression. It does look ok. But then again, I doubt a Grenadier Guards colour sgt would have worn my badge - except possibly in the trenches of the Western Front where I suppose one would close both eyes to a 'hybrid' if that's what it may unkindly be called, although I would prefer it to be referred to as an enterprising expedient which filled a void and could well have been worn and acknowledged as an interim badge/insignia. Then again, who's to say that such a piece, and perhaps others like it, was never worn. Our hobby is a never-ending one of discoveries!
As for sizes and positioning of GG colour-Sgt, I went by this: http://www.uniformology.com/BADGE19.html Simon, I can confirm my badge's Crown is a WO2 / CSM size
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#24
04-10-16, 07:05 AM
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Could this be "best swordsman in the band"?
Rob
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#25
04-10-16, 07:24 AM
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1960 pattern badges were introduced for Number 2 Dress and are two thirds smaller than the pre-1960 badges worn on Service Dress and Battle Dress. However, the Guards Regiments continue to wear the "full size" rank and proficiency badges on Number 2 Dress (now FAD Service Dress). Here are a few examples of the PTI crossed swords for size comparison: Tim
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm" "Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!" "Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest."
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#26
04-10-16, 07:25 AM
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Just noticed from a post in another recently updated thread that Colour Sergeants in the Grenadier Guards serving as CQMS are addressed as "Pay Sergeant"!
Tim
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm" "Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!" "Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest." Last edited by grey_green_acorn; 04-10-16 at 07:31 AM. Reason: Duplicate post
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#27
04-10-16, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Tim
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm" "Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!" "Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest."
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#28
04-10-16, 07:43 AM
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Upper arm crossed swords have formed part of Rank badges since Victorian times (Colour Sergeant) and also Instructors in Fencing and Gymnastics. Prize badges are worn on the lower arm only. To Generalise 1st class has a small crown above, 2nd Class a Star and 3rd Class nothing. (I know this doesnt always apply) 1st Class does not have a seperate Large crown, it has an integral small crown. Linaker & Dine's book on Cavalry NCO's arm badges has many examples of swords and Large crowns within it, all of which are rank & appointment badges. Worth a look. regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth Manchester Regiment Collector Rank, Prize & Trade Badges British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
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#29
04-10-16, 09:25 AM
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It is possible that Grumpy is correct that it is “a made-up badge,” but it is also possible there is a very good reason why it is stitched together, so I wouldn’t start unpicking it until all avenues of research have been exhausted.
In regards to Simons comment “Dont be influenced by the Crown size on certain badges illustrated, they are just impressions,” I am not convinced, the question I put to everyone is why go to the effort to illustrate different sized crowns, why not depict them all the same size? In New Zealand it would not be unusual for the crown to be positioned on top of the swords or slightly above the swords. Unfortunately photos of New Zealand Colour Sergeants of the NZ Gymnastic Staff are rare, but the following may be of interest. The first picture shows Colour Sergeant T Moorehead, and is circa 1880/1890. The second picture shows Sergeant Major L H Norton wearing a combination brass swords and worsted crown. (Photo taken during WW1) The third picture shows Sergeant Mayhead and is included to show what WW1 NZ manufactured worsted swords look like.   
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#30
04-10-16, 09:31 AM
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The 60s pattern badges would be 2/3 size of earlier badges, i.e. 1/3 smaller . I take it that what applies to GG colour-sgts badges would also apply to the other Guards Regts? GTB
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