Formation patch question

[Old Smelly]

There were also a number of Indian Cavalry units in that theatre.
Lee

[David Tremain]

The Military Cross.
Captain (temporary Major) Edward Ronald Pettit
(44155), gth Queen's Royal Lancers (attd. 3rd
Carabiniers (Prince of Wales's Dragoon Guards)),
Royal Armoured Corps

8oo SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 8 FEBRUARY, 1945

I've also found this:

http://en.ww2awards.com/person/47954

I think we may have found him!
David

[Mike Jackson]

Well done! Having survived the action that eventually led to the award of the MC, it is surprising that as a Grade 1 staff officer in HQ Fourteenth Army he should be killed in action. Perhaps he was visiting armoured units at the front?

[David Tremain]

You're right Lee, there were, but in the link I posted with all recipients of awards

http://www.hut-six.co.uk/WW2data/WO3...d%20India.html

there were only a few Indian armoured units represented, but none seemed to have received the MC. I also found there a 2nd Lt.; Capt; temporary Major Arthur John Bayley, RAC, attached 7th Light Cavalry, Indian Armoured Corps.

David

[David Tremain]

Thanks, Mike, that was fun. I love trying to nail down things like this from a few shreds of evidence. However, the evidence is not 100% conclusive without a proper provenance but from the documentation I've presented I think this is probably as close as we're going to get.
David

[JerryBB]

Many thanks to David, Lee and Mike for all your help on this and for taking the time and trouble to look into this and to post, much appreciated.

Obviously, special thanks are due to David, as you do seem to have found a perfect match which is far more than I expected when I started this thread.

I suppose the next question is, what patches would he have worn, the cloth shoulder titles would be for the 9th Dragoon Guards I assume or would he have worn RAC titles? And presumably bullion officers grade 14th army formation patches, but would he have worn A of S strips for the RAC?

[JerryBB]

One problem with this identification is that the BD is a 40 pattern pre austerity version and is dated April 1942, so would he have had Captains rank stars sewn on it if he was an acting Major by 1940?

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by JBBOND

Many thanks to David, Lee and Mike for all your help on this and for taking the time and trouble to look into this and to post, much appreciated.

Obviously, special thanks are due to David, as you do seem to have found a perfect match which is far more than I expected when I started this thread.

I suppose the next question is, what patches would he have worn, the cloth shoulder titles would be for the 9th Dragoon Guards I assume or would he have worn RAC titles? And presumably bullion officers grade 14th army formation patches, but would he have worn A of S strips for the RAC?

I doubt if a BD blouse to a British cavalry officer serving in India and Burma will have been adorned with the full array of insignia that would have been seen in Europe. I don't believe that an officer of either 9L or 3DG will have gone out of his way to wear the full RAC title or the RAC AoS strips. My CIH contact wore brass titles or C.I.H. embroidered on rank slides. But 3 DG did have a very rare title made locally reading 3rd CARABINIERS in red on yellow. I've only ever seen two examples. As for bazaar-made bullion formation signs - that will have been an individual's choice.

[JerryBB]

Thanks Mike. I'll just stick to replacing the 14th army formation patches.

[David Tremain]

Having thought I'd pretty much got it nailed down yesterday, it's got me thinking about the BD blouse again. A few things are still puzzling me:


1. Since he was in Burma he would have been wearing tropical kit, not the type of BD blouse shown here.

2. His campaign medals would not have been issued until after the war, correct? I also note that in one of my links it shows all the medals Lt.Col. Pettit was issued with, but one of them on the BD is missing. I think it's the 1939 - 45 Star, but will have to go back and look again.

3. Given that he was gazetted in 1945, he surely wouldn't have been able to put up his MC until it was official, correct? But by that time he had been killed in action. So who would have sewn all his ribbons onto his BD post war? His widow? But why bother?

Therefore, I'm wondering if the ID is correct. Clearly, it would appear that the BD could have been worn by someone in an armoured unit, given the traces of yellow stitching. My approach was to look up which armoured units were serving in Burma in WW2, then see who in those units had won the MC. Out of those only a couple seemed to fit, if I discounted the Indian armoured units because none of them receiving an MC were in the right unit or of the right rank. I think we're still on the right track, but maybe barking up the wrong jungle tree. Maybe some more research needs to be done.

On the other questions raised, I think that on tropical kit metal shoulder titles would've been worn, but I don't think some of the armoured units (cavalry regiments) wore cloth shoulder titles did they? The BD would be of the right period as he joined up before the war so would've bought the earlier non-economy version.

David

[JerryBB]

Hi David,

I also wondered whether the ID was correct, as much as I would have liked it to have been.

1) As far as I am aware, they did wear BD in the far east, as they certainly did in the middle east, but I could not swear to it.

2&3) Another question that had occurred to me, as to if he would have put them up before wars end. For his MC, it would have had to have been approved earlier than it was gazetted, though probably too late to wear it whilst he was still alive I think, but I remember reading that the only gallantry awards that could be awarded posthumously were the VC and the MiD.

I also noticed the missing medal and it is the War Medal.

As regards the date of the BD, I mentioned this in an earlier post and as he was already a Temp. Major by 1940, it does seem unlikely that he would have a 42 dated BD with Captains rank insignia on it.

He might have been RASC as they also wore yellow backed rank insignia.

In all, I think we need to find another candidate for this, but I doubt it will be possible to ever achieve a certain attribution.

Thanks again David for spending so much time on this.

[Mike Jackson]

This should dispel any doubts about BD being worn in India by, in this case, staff of the IAC Armd Car School in late 1945. Maj Laverick CIH at bottom left.
IAC Armd Car School.02.jpg

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

This should dispel any doubts about BD being worn in India by, in this case, staff of the IAC Armd Car School in late 1945. Maj Laverick CIH at bottom left.
Attachment 84137

Indeed Mike and I don't know why I was being uncertain as I own an Indian made BD with its original badges to GHQ India, Doh!!!

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

Another plausible option is the less well known sign of 505 LofC District - located at Meiktila from May 45.
Attachment 84090

One of these patches for sale on Geoff Newman's site, if anyone is interested.