11th Hussars Arm Badge???

[Paul Spellman]

A recent purchase but someone has told me that this is not an arm badge as they were only ever in Silver or S/Plate. I have also read a couple of threads but cannot find a definite answer. It is 60mm in height and very well made, if it is not an arm badge what is it?
Thanks
Paul

[Paul Spellman]

Reverse image

[Robthereiver]

Hello Paul

I think the general consensus is that these gilding metal badges were not worn as arm badges, as the vast majority of all cavalry/RAC NCO's arm badges were indeed made of Silver or white metal, including the 11H.

However, there are some who say they were worn, but I don't think any documentary or photographic evidence has been located to substantiate that view. I must admit I am at a loss to think of a purpose for which they might be worn, as even their pouch badges where apparently wm Arm Badges.

So, sorry to say but IMHO these gm. Arm Badges, despite how well made, are spurious, and there are quite a number of others in circulation such as 8H/5L Harps, RSG Eagles, Motto's etc.

Rob

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

A recent purchase but someone has told me that this is not an arm badge as they were only ever in Silver or S/Plate. I have also read a couple of threads but cannot find a definite answer. It is 60mm in height and very well made, if it is not an arm badge what is it?
Thanks
Paul

[GriffMJ]

Possibly a cross belt badge for the ORs...

[Paul Spellman]

Thank you both for replying.
Hopefully I haven't got a duffer and it won't be too bad if it is a pouch badge as shown in Griff's image. Very nice uniform by the way Griff.
Paul

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Possibly a cross belt badge for the ORs...

Griff

I think this is an image of a 11H uniform from an antique dealers web site? If so, there is a close up of the Pouch on that site and judging by the marks side in the leather surrounding the 11H badge, I would suggest its not the original device, something larger, more circular in shape perhaps has been there before?.

I also feel in these times it is generally unwise IMO to use images, particularly of uniforms and headdress from dealers/auction houses web sites as a point of reference, and I advise caution before giving them credence.

The reason being, as I'm sure many members have noticed, is the increasing number of items that are being sold have been embellished and basically mucked about,that is to say items married together to form the whole, and more often than not the items cobbled together are neither correct or contemporary. By coincidence for example the Busby shown with the aforesaid 11H Uniform has a white plume, the correct Plume would be White over Crimson.

The reasons for these sort of issues occurring are many, and not always to deceive, more often out of ignorance,in an attempt to increase the value, general lack of knowledge and a shortage of good militaria eg. individuals trying to made the best of what they can get. Theatrical/fancy dress embellishments etc. also play a part.


Rob

[mac mcconnell]

As Rob has pointed out photos from traders and auction houses can certainly be miss leading. If you are going to substantiate something research and provenance are the way forward.

Mac

[Robthereiver]

Hello Paul et all

I've made some quick enquiries, and done a little research on these badges.

I cannot find an official reference to said badges in any regimental history/ordnance document I have in my reference library.

The only references I have found are both post 1970.The first, was an entry in Laurence Archer's 'Notes for Military Badge Collectors' Feb 1980. Which in short states, that these large 11H Badges are readily available on the market and are being sold as NCO Arm Badges. He acknowledges that 11H NCO's only wore Silver arm badges.

The second, was actually posted on this forum though unfortunately I lack the skills to add it as a link. It was in a thread posted by Griff entitled Chad(not Linaker & Dine) 29-01-13. Post no.8 by Grey_Green_ Acorn shows a page from the Marsh 'Badges at a glance' catalogue 1970's? which shows an image of one of these large badges No.53 which as I understand it was in gilding metal/brass (perhaps Tim if he reads this could confirm). I would suggest that Marsh was the source of most of these badges that are in circulation. He may even managed to acquire the original arm badge dies and that is why they are such good strikes, Archer also suggests they may have be struck from the old dies.

I also spoke to an ex Cherrypicker friend of mine who served during the 1950'/60's, He was categorical that the regiment only wore silver/SP/wm. NCO's Arm badges and that the O/R's pouch badges were wm. Armbadges.
This is supported in Cox's 'Dress Distinctions of the 11th Hussars(PAO)' published by Langridge 1960, and by the general con-census of opinion.

However, my 11H friend mention that the regimental provost staff allegedly wore a large brass 'arm badge'? although neither he or myself have any proof of this, it is possible.

I would also mention that the regiment did have some cast Brass silver plated Arm Badges made whilst in Egypt during WWII(see L&D also Seaman) , and it occurred to me that as with most brass SP badges the Silver plate soon disappears with wear, so you are left with a 'Brass NCO's Arm Badge'
I wonder if it was a few of these badges that the small unit of Provost were wearing? and were these badges the source of the brass arm badge myth? Food for thought perhaps?

Best I can do, I hope its of help and interest.

Rob

[Paul Spellman]

Thank you Rob,
Your time and sharing of your knowledge with this is very much appreciated, it seems as though it will have to go in the mystery box until some evidence of wear 'or not' comes to the fore.
Best wishes
Paul

[grey_green_acorn]

Rob and Paul,
Here is a link to the Marsh catalogue "Badges at a Glance" page.
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...56&postcount=8

Tim

[mac mcconnell]

That's a horrid 17th and a nasty 21st my eyes are offended hate those two horrid badges and Arm motto thing.

That Arm motto regularly finds its way on to Traders sites if I find traders selling it I tend to give them a wide berth as its so well documented as a fake from such a famous Regiment you must be living on the moon if you don't know. Show this in your collection and your soon told as I was on week one of collecting its a bad lot.


Best Mac