LRDG Badge

[Jack8]

It appears that some some New Zealand collectors rate the pattern of LRDG badge that is currently for sale on eBay and the subject of this thread.

If Kiwi Ric is still a member here it would be good to hear his opinion, along with any other NZ collectors.

Regarding the eBay badge, although a similar one sold the other day for just over £200 on eBay, I personally would not spend more than £20 on this pattern with the touching tail. The mixed feelings among collectors as to its authenticity is the reason why.

Jack

[Frank Kelley]

LOL Albert,
Clearly the real "experts" are all on "Wehrmacht awards" (yuk, I can't even type it without feeling a bad taste in the mouth, let alone actually say it!)
Never mind, the particular post in the link provided certainly made me smile, rather like playing Chinese whispers.
For what it's worth, I do, fully, share your opinion.
Kind regards Frank

Originally Posted by appie_b

Agreed, the blob looks the same...

I still do not like it, but lets wait what some of the real experts have to say about it.

regards,

Albert.

[Overland]

Are you saying that there are no original LRDG badges where the tail touches the leg?
Maybe it was a NZ feature?
It would be good to hear if anybody has an original with tail touching.

[popskipa]

This pattern of badge is not recognised as an original wartime issue.

There is discussion in the LRDG Association Newsletters, in the 1960s, regarding headdress badges being manufactured and supplied for members. It is my belief this is one of them. I came to this conclusion as I have a medal and document group to a NZ LRDG patrol leader, which came direct from the family of the recipient, and one of these badges was with the group.

So in brief, not wartime, not a modern fake, but a post-war item produced for the LRDG regimental association.

I attach images of the standard wartime issue LRDG badge. The non-touching leg and tail, and the design on the scorpion back, being the main distinguishing features between fake and original.

Keith.

I collect to the LRDG, PPA and Indian Long Range Squadron and would be delighted to be offered items associated to these units, anything considered...

[Frank Kelley]

If you are talking to me, firstly, I don't claim to be an "expert" but, certainly, what I am saying is simply that I do not recognise the subject of this thread, with the "blob" as being original to the existence of the LRDG, I would suggest, that they are complete and utter dross and they have started to appear over recent years.

Originally Posted by Overland

Are you saying that there are no original LRDG badges where the tail touches the leg?
Maybe it was a NZ feature?
It would be good to hear if anybody has an original with tail touching.

[Overland]

Nice badge Keith, thank you for the information. If you don't mind me asking, what led you to believe the badge in the NZ group was a reproduction?

[popskipa]

Hello Overland,

The LRDG badge I have shown in my post is the type commonly found with LRDG groups. I use the term "common" but no LRDG items are common, indeed all original LRDG badges, titles, documents etc., are quite scarce.

However, a close study of period photographs only show my "common" badge being worn, and not the badge I have described as made post-war for the LRDG Association.

Information regarding the manufacture of LRDG badges is virtually non existent. I can find no official records, only the occasional mention in published memoirs. Several authors have used memoirs and hearsay as reference, with no supporting official documents as proof.

So, back to your question, how do I know the badge, the subject of this thread, is not a wartime badge? Well I don't, I cannot prove it is post-war, but I can provide photographic evidence of what a wartime badge looks like and it doesn't look like that badge.

Keith

[Overland]

Thanks Keith, I appreciate your reply and it makes a lot of sense. Good advice too... I guess that the only way to guarantee the authenticity of a badge is to obtain one that either has verified provenance or that is identical to those that do.
It would be interesting to hear from any Kiwi's why they rate the other badge type with the tail touching.
Many Thanks

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Jack8

It appears that some some New Zealand collectors rate the pattern of LRDG badge that is currently for sale on eBay and the subject of this thread.

If Kiwi Ric is still a member here it would be good to hear his opinion, along with any other NZ collectors.

Regarding the eBay badge, although a similar one sold the other day for just over £200 on eBay, I personally would not spend more than £20 on this pattern with the touching tail. The mixed feelings among collectors as to its authenticity is the reason why.

Jack

Atilla is from New Zealand and I just happen to have an interest in this particular style of LRDG badge, so happy to offer my opinion.
I would like to point out I am not an LRDG badge collector but I do own one single LRDG badge that is similar to the one that is being auctioned.

I purchased my LRDG badge from one of New Zealands leading LRDG badge experts who is also a member of this forum (Omok1)
The great thing is Craig gave me a lifetime 100% money back guarantee if I could prove it to be a dud.

For the last 10 years that I have owned my LRDG badge I have so far failed to prove it being a dud, but having read a few comments on this thread maybe someone has better information that will finally beyond all reasonable doubt prove that these badges are- quote "Not a good one I'm afraid" or maybe I will end up having to keep my little LRDG badge after all.

I am also a member of the "Wehrmacht awards" forum, but have never claimed to be an expert, but I do know some who I consider to be "clearly the real experts."

The real LRDG badge experts that I have been fortunate to correspond with IMO are collectors who own LRDG badges with provenance that came direct from the veterans themselves.

Provenance of course can come down to interpretation, but it is hard to deny the fact that these badges have turned up in a few LRDG veterans collections and all have the same die flaw below the G.
And its good to see that popskipa has been able to confirm this as fact.

The digger website is not the best when it comes to information being 100% correct, as although they show this particular LRDG badge to be a "Cast original LRDG badge" it is not cast, it is die stamped.
The LRDG badge posted by popskipa in post #19, although difficult to tell from the photo I suspect is die cast and was the last version of the LRDG badge to be produced.
By any chance popskipa is your badge one of the LRDG QM Stores badges?

You also mention- "There is discussion in the LRDG Association Newsletters, in the 1960s, regarding headdress badges being manufactured and supplied for members. It is my belief this is one of them."
Do you have anything more than your belief to back your statement?

I am not trying to get anyone's back up, I just love a good debate that hopefully will bring a better understanding of this type of LRDG badge.

Those who have publicly condemned this type of LRDG badge, what proof do you have that it is as they say - not a good one?

PS Ric I know your laughing your head off by now.

[popskipa]

Q. The LRDG badge posted by popskipa in post #19, although difficult to tell from the photo I suspect is die cast and was the last version of the LRDG badge to be produced.
By any chance popskipa is your badge one of the LRDG QM Stores badges?

A. The badge illustrated is from the DLO hoard, ex-QM Stores

Q. You also mention- "There is discussion in the LRDG Association Newsletters, in the 1960s, regarding headdress badges being manufactured and supplied for members. It is my belief this is one of them."
Do you have anything more than your belief to back your statement?

A. Sadly no, the then newly manufactured badges are not illustrated in the newsletters

Keith

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by popskipa

Q. The LRDG badge posted by popskipa in post #19, although difficult to tell from the photo I suspect is die cast and was the last version of the LRDG badge to be produced.
By any chance popskipa is your badge one of the LRDG QM Stores badges?

A. The badge illustrated is from the DLO hoard, ex-QM Stores

Q. You also mention- "There is discussion in the LRDG Association Newsletters, in the 1960s, regarding headdress badges being manufactured and supplied for members. It is my belief this is one of them."
Do you have anything more than your belief to back your statement?

A. Sadly no, the then newly manufactured badges are not illustrated in the newsletters

Keith

Hi Keith, interestingly I was contacted by Major General Lloyd Owen's family to value not only the QM LRDG stores insignia but also the personal effects relating to the LRDG that the General had collected in his life time.
I even managed to convince the Generals family who were not keen at all, to share the whole collection with this forum, but sadly due to a little disrespect the family pulled the plug and requested that no more photos of their collection to be posted on this forum.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=18640

One of the documents I cannot share but can be verified by Kiwi Ric is from the General who as chairman of the LRDG Association describes a copy of the LRDG badge, and I do have a photo of the actual badge he is describing.

The fact that the badge at the centre of this discussion is a type that has turned up in the collections of LRDG vets and are photographed in a number of premier LRDG collections suggests to me that they deserve a little respect.

Unless you or someone else has some actual evidence that the badge in question is postwar, then it would appear that this type of LRDG badge is "Genuine WW2 issue" until proven otherwise.

Brent

[popskipa]

Hi Brent

I disagree with your statement:
"Unless you or someone else has some actual evidence that the badge in question is postwar, then it would appear that this type of LRDG badge is "Genuine WW2 issue" until proven otherwise."

I would rather err on the side of caution. In my opinion, at best, the badge is a post-war product made for the LRDG Association. The badge should be regarded as post-war until proven otherwise.

I feel with this badge we must agree to disagree.

Keith

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by popskipa

Hi Brent

I disagree with your statement:
"Unless you or someone else has some actual evidence that the badge in question is postwar, then it would appear that this type of LRDG badge is "Genuine WW2 issue" until proven otherwise."

I would rather err on the side of caution. In my opinion, at best, the badge is a post-war product made for the LRDG Association. The badge should be regarded as post-war until proven otherwise.

I feel with this badge we must agree to disagree.

Keith

Keith, you must have your reasons for your opinion? the badge up for auction is a type I have only seen come out of New Zealand LRDG vet collections, and local LRDG book writer Brendan OCarrol does not mention this type of badge as an association badge, and I have one of the coolest data bases for New Zealand LRDG association badges, none of which match the LRDG badge being sold on EBAY, in fact especially in size and design it looks almost identical to the standard issue WW2 LRDG badge.

If you are going to offer an opinion and encourage others to believe your opinion, at least try to prove it.

Brent

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Jack8

It appears that some some New Zealand collectors rate the pattern of LRDG badge that is currently for sale on eBay and the subject of this thread.

If Kiwi Ric is still a member here it would be good to hear his opinion, along with any other NZ collectors.

Regarding the eBay badge, although a similar one sold the other day for just over £200 on eBay, I personally would not spend more than £20 on this pattern with the touching tail. The mixed feelings among collectors as to its authenticity is the reason why.

Jack

Firstly there are some very very good copies of this type of badge that are currently doing the rounds, so do your homework before you buy, secondly there are two leading New Zealand LRDG collectors who belong to this forum who are unable to comment on this thread due to one being the one who sold me my LRDG badge and the other is laughing his head off.

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Firstly there are some very very good copies of this type of badge that are currently doing the rounds, so do your homework before you buy, secondly there are two leading New Zealand LRDG collectors who belong to this forum who are unable to comment on this thread due to one being the one who sold me my LRDG badge and the other is laughing his head off.

Thanks for the advice. Not sure why the one collector can't defend the badge you bought though, or why the other should be laughing his head off instead of commenting, I'm obviously missing something

I've just finished reading all the old LRDG threads and posts on here and some are quite interesting regarding the badge in question. I would recommend others do the same. Seems even the best of us had doubts at one time about this pattern badge.

Jack