Calgary Highlanders caveat emptor

[Bill A]

Odd, the Calgary Show was last weekend, and now these tunics show up? And the vendor needs to do some homework. http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-Calgary-...item2c811e09f3

[Voltigeur]

AAAAAAHHHHH our old friend vespalambretta.....well this time he messed up good IF this to be a late-war BD. The CH were never in 3rd Div and, as for the overseas chevron, the black ones were not worn anymore after 1944........Also beware of his RHLI BD with a misplaced CVSM ribbon and no div. patch (this could happen in the field....)

Jo

[Bill A]

The RHLI battle dress appears to be a "best bd". Note the heavy tailoring to the back. This work was usually reserved for the best tunic the soldier had, and not one worn in the field. http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-Royal-Ha...item2c811e9953
There are also two CEF helmets for sale. They make me uncomfortable.

[Voltigeur]

Bill, if you check the placement of the CVSM ribbon (placed on the pocket flap) .....no RSM worth his salt would ever let a private go on parade with that.

Jo

[Phillip Herring]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

Bill, if you check the placement of the CVSM ribbon (placed on the pocket flap) .....no RSM worth his salt would ever let a private go on parade with that.

Jo

Based on your personal experience?
I've seen RSMs miss things.

Phil

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by Phillip Herring

Based on your personal experience?
I've seen RSMs miss things.

Phil

Based on numerous books that I have read in the last 30 years.....and I will take your word on this subject since you have such a large and extended military knowledge and experience and also the fact that you are willing and able without an afterthought to promulgate that knowledge to all members of this Forum.

Jo

[Phillip Herring]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

Based on numerous books that I have read in the last 30 years.....and I will take your word on this subject since you have such a large and extended military knowledge and experience and also the fact that you are willing and able without an afterthought to promulgate that knowledge to all members of this Forum.

Jo

Don't believe everything you read, and don't mislead people into thinking you were a soldier. You have done this before and allowed incorrect information to be promulgated.
Stay in your lane, don't be a Walt and fight any urges to take shots at my military experience.
In my defence, I think I have provided a great deal of first hand information to the forum based on my observations while in the CF. I challenge you to do the same.

Phil

[Bill A]

Lets keep the focus on the topic of the tunic.

[Phillip Herring]

Despite the description in the listing, the Calgary Highlanders tunic does have the blue 2nd CID patch, which would be correct.

Phil

[Bill A]

The problem with these offerings are the mixture of "authentic" with the questionable. Building on a base tunic but adding other material...
A vendor, long deceased, specialized in this sort of approach. He acquired authentic German tunics and insignia and married them for the first time. Then the item was allowed to stand on its own and collectors made their own judgements.
The shoulder titles and formation patches are correct for 2 CID. The shoulder titles of that pattern were also worn well after the war as well. The service stripes are not correct. They were not worn overseas until circa 1944, and then that was the smaller red / white patterns.

[Tanker Mike]

With this vendor, " Caveat emptor " is the phrase of the day.

Mike

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally Posted by Tanker Mike

With this vendor, " Caveat emptor " is the phrase of the day.

Mike

Not sure why it would ever be off the table, to be honest.

As for the black badges, I have learned never to say "never." To support Philip's comments - strange things often happen. Vendor histories are important, and should form a part of the buyer's process. Having said that, while I doubt the overseas chevrons would have been worn on active service by anyone in 2 Cdn Div, it is not completely impossible that some circumstance might conspire to find an unlikely set of insignia on a BD. Orders get misinterpreted, reinforcements arrive from Canada with badges not intended to be worn in theatre, BD gets tucked away in kit bags, casualty kit gets sent home, etc.

[Bill A]

Agreed that there are unusual circumstances that may explain the insignia. But there are several points that make this tunic suspect.
The early pattern service stripes do not make sense. There is a 1939 silver one, then three more black ones. That would indicate service to 1942. The canvas patches were not issued until 1943, and the barrel style shoulder titles were not taken into wear until late 1942 or early 1943. That would indicate the tunic owner either did not add the appropriate service chevron(s) or came home. But, more to the point, the black and white service chevrons were not authorized for wear overseas. Even if he inadvertently had them, service stripes were not allowed on the tunic overseas until 1944. And they were the smaller pattern silver and red service chevrons. The 1944 chevrons were to be sewn on the right forearm. These are on the left. The ones on this tunic look quite new, especially when compared to the somewhat worn appearance of the 2 CID patch and the shoulder titles. If one argued he was returned to Canada, he should not have the 2 CID patches, unless he was discharged.
The cumulative evidence makes me very uncomfortable with this tunic. And, it would make me uncomfortable no matter who the vendor.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Agreed that there are unusual circumstances that may explain the insignia. But there are several points that make this tunic suspect.
The early pattern service stripes do not make sense. There is a 1939 silver one, then three more black ones. That would indicate service to 1942. The canvas patches were not issued until 1943, and the barrel style shoulder titles were not taken into wear until late 1942 or early 1943. That would indicate the tunic owner either did not add the appropriate service chevron(s) or came home. But, more to the point, the black and white service chevrons were not authorized for wear overseas. Even if he inadvertently had them, service stripes were not allowed on the tunic overseas until 1944. And they were the smaller pattern silver and red service chevrons. The 1944 chevrons were to be sewn on the right forearm. These are on the left. The ones on this tunic look quite new, especially when compared to the somewhat worn appearance of the 2 CID patch and the shoulder titles. If one argued he was returned to Canada, he should not have the 2 CID patches, unless he was discharged.
The cumulative evidence makes me very uncomfortable with this tunic. And, it would make me uncomfortable no matter who the vendor.

This thought process is exactly what sets apart the informed collector from the "ebay clicker."

For $20, it's a nice collection of apparently original badges with a war-dated BD blouse thrown in for free. Be interesting to see what the reserve is.

One of the archives in the States had a nice photo collection where I found some images of the black badges in use. I seem to recall the soldiers were Prince Edward Island Highlanders. The interesting thing about the photos was they were taken in the U.S., somewhere on the east coast, at an embarkation port - they were on their way overseas. I believe the orders were that you wore "Canada only" insignia until you had actually sailed - it may be also that they were not told of their destination until they sailed, wartime security being what it was. I've often wondered what they did with those badges - MARS, GS, service, etc. - keep them or turn them in. And if they did turn them in, did the Army waste valuable shipping space returning them to Canada for re-use? This was at the time they were photographing letters (V-Mail) because it took up too much space on trans-Atlantic flights/shipping. Would they really have wasted their time sending the badges back? Anything is possible when dealing with military bureaucracy of course.

[Bill A]

Insignia were chargeable until RO 3525 was promulgated in 1943. This included rank and unit badges. By RO 3525 they became expendable stores, and the property of the soldier.