Australian STAFF Officer Cap Badges

[barneywomble]

Can someone tell me weather Australian Army Staff Officers wore 'metal' cap badges during WW1 and WW2 ?

Cheers Marc

[Rednek]

For rank badges, rather than Corps badges?

[barneywomble]

Originally Posted by Rednek

For rank badges, rather than Corps badges?

No mate just trying to find out if the Australian Staff Officers (Colonel and Brigadier) wore metal cap badges (the ones pictured) or only bullion cloth cap badges.

cheers
Marc

[Rednek]

OK, rank badges.
Not sure.
And, it would depend if "officially"
There can always be one (or more), who decide "I'd like to wear one like that"

[vigilans]

This badge was worn during WW1- is this what you mean?

[barneywomble]

No Mate, I was asking if the Australian Army in WW1 and WW2 wore the badges in the pictures in the post. Cheers Marc

[Rednek]

To clarify,
The first two badges are rank badges, for Colonels and Brigadiers.
The rank badge worn by Sir John Gellibrand in the later photo is that of a Major General.

[kingsley]

The only way to be sure if they were worn by Australian officers is by photographic proof, which I have never seen. In the meantime, I have given them the benefit of the doubt anf have kept several different variations, some of which might be wrong (worn instead by British regiments). I can't remember which ones used this pattern badge in various sizes.

[vigilans]

Originally Posted by Rednek

To clarify,
The first two badges are rank badges, for Colonels and Brigadiers.
The rank badge worn by Sir John Gellibrand in the later photo is that of a Major General.

Yes my mistake I thought Marc was referring to officers of all ranks ("Can someone tell me weather(sic) Australian Army Staff Officers wore 'metal' cap badges during WW1 and WW2").
But the MG badge still a very nice and scarce thing!

[Rednek]

Originally Posted by vigilans

Yes my mistake I thought Marc was referring to officers of all ranks ("Can someone tell me weather(sic) Australian Army Staff Officers wore 'metal' cap badges during WW1 and WW2").
But the MG badge still a very nice and scarce thing!

You are quite correct.
The question was in relation to "Australian Staff Officers", no other specifics.
My responses were to illustrate that the badges are rank badges, and actually, not representing "Staff Officers".
Staff Officers can be of many ranks, starting from Captain and Major, going up.
Back to the illustrated badges.
Not all Colonels and Brigadiers are Staff Officers.
Trust the above makes sense?

Sticking my neck out here into the grey area of the question, in an endeavour to clarify.
The badges pictured are rank badges, and not "staff officer" badges.
The term "staff officer" refers to a posting, not a rank.
To illustrate, a Brigadier commanding a Brigade is not a staff officer.

Going further out on a limb.
Potentially the question arises from the "Australian Staff Corps" metal badges that were worn, nominally allocated, collecting wise, to the period between WW1 and WW2.
They are different badges, for different purposes.
The "Australian Staff Corps" badges are just that - corps badges worn by members of the Australian Staff Corps, designating the corps (akin to a unit badge).
The ones pictured in the question are rank badges, and not badges of "The Australian Staff Corps".

Trust that I have interpreted this correctly.

And, vigilans, you correctly provided photographic evidence of an Australian officer wearing a metal badge.

OK, a thought, one more clarification, from my experience.
"Unit" badges, as have been historically produced and worn relate to units.
The largest size unit (here I will speak of infantry, which has the highest number of members / largest size unit) is a battalion, commanded, nominally, by a Lieutenant Colonel.
Above that size, e.g. Brigade, Division, they are then "formations", and not units.
So, all of a Brigade, or a Division does not wear a single badge, worn by all members, whereas a Battalion does, by all members (each Company, Platoon etc. wears the unit badge).

Trying not to expand the subject, not to re-write it.
But, rank badges are that, different to Corps badges and unit badges.
The badges in the question are rank badges.

As Kingsley pointed out, the only way to verify if those rank badges were worn in metal in WW1 and WW2 is to get photographic evidence. vigilans did just that, albeit for a higher level rank badge (Maj. Gen.).

Last comment, sticking my head up further above the parapet.
It comes down to whether the metal ranks badges, if worn, were worn officially or unofficially.
Officially, as directed for wear, and worn by all.
Unofficially, as in an, or some, individuals deciding they would like to wear that particular badge, for their own particular ........ reason (to be distinctive is one way of putting it).
People do do that.

[fairlie63]

PVCN 1940 shows Royal Crest, brass, 10 pence.

No mention in War Scales of Clothing and Necessaries 1942.

I would assume that the Royal Crest would be in gilt for Brigadiers and Substantive Colonels rather than brass. The term 'brass' was, however, adopted in lieu of gilding metal in 1931 in the AMF.

Keith

[barneywomble]

Thnaks for all the replies. In hindsight I could have written the question better. To simplify...

Did members of the Australian army wear the Gilt/Brass cap badge 'pictured' in WW2 and did members of the Australian army wear the 'Oxidised' cap badge in WW1 ? ... or are these British army cap badges ?

I have looked at quite a few photos but they always seem to be the bullion embroided style.