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  #46  
Old 19-10-17, 07:41 AM
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Would bugle on the front and cap badge size Brigade badge on the pouch work ? It appears the guy is an Officer. Also maybe explains why theyve have used a HM silver badge rather than the plated version.
Mike
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  #47  
Old 19-10-17, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike H View Post
Would bugle on the front and cap badge size Brigade badge on the pouch work ? It appears the guy is an Officer. Also maybe explains why theyve have used a HM silver badge rather than the plated version.
Mike
I think officers in No 3 tropical dress would have a black gimp shoulder board.

Also the badge on his lower right sleeve looks to be either the Royal Arms WO1 rank badge, or the Musician/Bandsman trade badge?

Assuming the former, I'd have him as a WO1, possibly (given the website) the Bandmaster? The width of his cross belt and looks like the wider officer/WO version. Ditto the size of the Lion's Head, which under current Rifles dress regs is worn without the wreath edging as this makes it too wide for the 50mm belt.

The others all seem to be colour serjeants - crown over chevrons where visible and all wearing sashes? Current Rifles No 3 Dress practice would have these (and serjeants) in the 50mm wide cross belt though!

I seem to remember seeing some discussion somewhere about dissatisfaction with the narrower SNCOs cross belt. The gist of which was that the regiment thought it looks unmilitary (i.e. daft!). Cannot find that just now though. Perhaps this narrower version was a new feature introduced for The RIFLES?

Certainly the old KRRC practice on the corded boss cap badge was limited to WO2 and higher. Colour serjeants wore the Maltese Cross cap badge. I think a similar principle applied to the cross belt, but I cannot find a reference to back that up at the moment and most of my photos are of KRRC in Service Dress where the cherry is the only differentiator.

Mark
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  #48  
Old 19-10-17, 12:45 PM
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Yes it definitely looks like the OBLI strung bugle on the pouch belt and must be very early on, as only the Bandmaster has a ‘Rifles’ Style badge of rank/appointment. All other SNCOs seem to have ordinary line regiment chevrons and wear scarlet sashes rather than pouchbelts. It makes me wonder both what badge was on the pouch seen, and whether practices might have changed later on, but before the merger to become RGJ. More research will be interesting.
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  #49  
Old 19-10-17, 12:56 PM
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More research ,most definately.
There is an image i have of the Bandmasters cap badge. Which is supposedly mega rrare,only 2 made. Its like a KSLI badge ,but rather than "KSLI" it says "43rd & 52nd" .
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  #50  
Old 19-10-17, 12:59 PM
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The Bandmaster of 1st Green Jackets 43rd & 52nd Band in 1963 was Basil SIMPSON.

Here's Simpson conducting in Penang in 1963, alongside a crop of our man from the previous photo, together with another image of BM Simpson at Oxford City FC in 1960 (included as the [edit] Bandmaster badge is very clear and because he appears to be in the frock coat, which is a subject Toby and I have discussed in the past!) ...

All three images © RGJ BAND 2017

Looks like the same man to me.

Frustratingly while the back pouch is visible, there's no way its badge can be made out.

Also the RH photo reveals the badge is NOT the WO1 Royal Arms.

Mark

Last edited by MBrockway; 19-10-17 at 02:08 PM.
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  #51  
Old 19-10-17, 01:43 PM
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Great photos and all of the same man I agree. The frock coat is the rifle green, black buttoned example we discussed previously. The badge seems to be the old, generic Bandmaster’s badge for a WOII. The pouch badge remains an elusive blighter, but the truth is out there somewhere!
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  #52  
Old 19-10-17, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Great photos and all of the same man I agree. The frock coat is the rifle green, black buttoned example we discussed previously. The badge seems to be the old, generic Bandmaster’s badge for a WOII. The pouch badge remains an elusive blighter, but the truth is out there somewhere!
I meant to say Bandmaster badge rather than Bandsman badge above - now corrected!

Good too that we finally found a photo of the frock coat in use versus merely described in the Rifles Dress Regs.
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  #53  
Old 19-10-17, 02:33 PM
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Got to agree,very frustrating. But none the less.very rewarding.
I hope somebody doesnt come along and say i knew it was a band pouch badge.
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  #54  
Old 19-10-17, 03:10 PM
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Although similar in appearance the Rifle regiments pouch belt and bandsmans pouches are quite different. The latter was much larger as it was intended as a music case (which was also the supply chain nomenclature).
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  #55  
Old 19-10-17, 06:25 PM
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Further to the rank badges mentioned earlier. They appear to be of the Light Infantry pattern of silver on rifle green.
All the Regts of LI had started to standardise their dress in the early 50's . The Ox & Bucks were obviously involved in this before they went to the Green Jackets Brigade.
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  #56  
Old 19-10-17, 06:56 PM
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That must have been before the LI settled on the SCLI Cornflower and green Mike, thank you I did not know of that.
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  #57  
Old 19-10-17, 06:58 PM
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Just been sent this image. Its rather good,again no rear view though. I dont know the date.
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  #58  
Old 19-10-17, 07:43 PM
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Interesting, it makes the OBLI bugle very clear and also the silver on green chevrons. How do we know though that these are not photos of the LI Bde? IIRC correctly from the massed bands of the Light Div, the dress and accoutrements were very similar.

I always felt that the LI regiments were effectively sold out once they were obliged to wear green. The formation of the Rifles merely became the final nail in their coffin. It was the equivalent of all fusilier regiments being merged into a single Grenadier regiment of many battalions.
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  #59  
Old 19-10-17, 07:59 PM
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The LI of the Light Division Band, on the right:
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  #60  
Old 19-10-17, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Although similar in appearance the Rifle regiments pouch belt and bandsmans pouches are quite different. The latter was much larger as it was intended as a music case (which was also the supply chain nomenclature).
This is certainly true of the current Band of the Brigade of Gurkhas.

Their pouch is the larger music case and its belt has a buckle close to the left epaulette ...

2012 ADR

Well seen in this photo from 2015 ...


This shot at a ceremony at the cenotaph in 2014, shows in the left foreground the standard back pouch with the full 75mm width cross belt being worn by one of the band's WO's. Note also the sword loops. He's not the Bugle Major as he's in another shot from the same event, plus he has wings - BSM perhaps? Unfortunately his sleeve insignia are not properly visible from this angle.


The full shot of the 1st Green Jackets, 43rd & 52nd playing at Oxford City FC in 1960, that I cropped BM Simpson out of above, includes a good shot of the band wearing the bandsman's belt with the buckle at the left shoulder ...

© RGJ BAND 2017

However, current practice in The Rifles Band & Bugles is definitely to wear the smaller back pouch, with the narrower SNCO cross belt. See this 2015 shot from the National Memorial Arboretum ...


This may be one of the Reserve Bands, but the band & bugles dress regs are identical to the Regulars.

Again there is a full width cross belt in sight here being worn by the band member on the right of centre with the feather plume, presumably another WO.

In current Rifles practice, Buglers do not wear the cross belt, unless their rank is higher than Corporal, but the waist belt with the buglers sword just to the rear of the left hip.

Band and Bugles is slightly off topic, but this thread is proving very useful and I hope you'll indulge me!

Mark

Last edited by MBrockway; 19-10-17 at 08:17 PM.
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