4th Gloucesters cloth title and questions

[lettman]

Illustrated is a pattern of title worn at some stage by the 4th Gloucesters during WW1, but I believe introduced prewar. It raises a couple of questions I can't seem to resolve.
1) If the 4th Gloucesters had a tradition as a rifle battalion (Bristol Rifles, I think) and initially wore a blackened badge, why did they wear a white-on-red title?
2) By the same token, why are the 5th Gloucesters, who don't appear to have been a rifles unit, depicted as wearing the same pattern title but with red lettering on green, rifles style?

[49lassiepen]

I can't answer you question as out of my field of collecting ,but take care repro 's about
David

[Peter Brydon]

I find the situation of "Rifles" traditions by Territorial battalions to be most interesting.

Of course the majority of Territorial Battalions traced their origins to the Rifle Volunteers so I suppose it can be said that most had rifle traditions in their past.

The 5th Kings Liverpools had their origins in the Liverpool Drill Club formed before 1859 and which in 1859 became the nucleus of the 1st Lancashire Rifle Volunteers.Their C.O. Nathaniel Bousefield was the first officer to receive a commission in the 1859 volunteer revival.

In 1937 the battalion ceased to be a Rifle Battalion and replaced their blackened Kings Liverpool badges with the bi metal badges of the Regular Battalions and were presented with colours to reflect the change in their status.

However in the late 1950`s/early 1960`s the battalion had blackened buttons made for wear on their battledress which consisted of a rose with " 1 LRV" around the edge to show their origin as the 1st Lancashire RVC. They also had lanyards made in black/green/ silver ( the old rifle/volunteer colours ) to again show their origins..

The point I am trying to make is that even after adopting the uniform of line regiments, it was not unheard of for battalions to adopt items of dress to show their origins.

Whether this was the case with the 5th Gloucesters title, I have no idea,but the fascination of our interest is that there is often an unexpected story behind many items of insignia.

P.B.

[Beckford]

4th Bn Glosters were formerly the 1st Volunteer Bn, Gloucestershire Regt and known as the 'Bristol Rifles'; when the Territorial Force was formed in 1908, they gave up their green rifles uniform and adopted the red with white facings of the regular battalions - hence the white on red shoulder title worn on khaki service dress.

5th Bn were formerly the 2nd Volunteer Bn and they also had rifle uniforms (rifle green with red facings), but they retained this until 1925 (according to the regimental history "Cap of Honour" by David Scott Daniell); their service dress shoulder titles were therefore red letters on a rifle green background.

6th Bn were formerly the 3rd Volunteer Bn, formed in 1900. They too gave up their old uniform (khaki with scarlet facings, slouch hat and feathers) in 1908 and adopted the red with white facings on the regulars. They too, therefore, had white on red shoulder titles on khaki service dress.

Unfortunately, because of a mistake in various books and articles, the myth has arisen that 4th Bn wore black badges - post 1908 they wore white metal.

The 5th Bn did wear black badges, at least in full dress - I have a photo of them wearing both full dress and service dress, with black badges on the full dress caps and white metal on the khaki SD caps!

6th Bn wore white metal badges.

Hope that helps!
Clive

[lettman]

Many thanks for clearing things up, Clive -- excellent information!