Popski's Private Army No 1 Demolition Squadron PPA

[seebee1]

Much appreciate the information Popski and certainly does assist in trying to identify the genuine badge. My badge that I started this thread with I will regard with some caution and skepticism, however I do believe that it has a chance of being a worn, used and fairly poorly cast original. As with all such insignia from Special Force Groups or Units, Provenance is everything. I would like to think that the elderly lady in Leicestershire from where mine was obtained, told me the truth, but I will never know for certain. I will attach two images from the WWW, one of the Astrolabe that has all the features that could be expected in an original badge, but not all. The other of the great man himself, just wonder what he would make of our critique and pondering of his iconic badge! Regards, Clive.

[elyisum]

This is a very interesting discussion about PPA badges .I have asked about this shoulder flash before on the forum but no one replied. Does anyone have any thoughts about it at all?

[IMG][/IMG]

[Mike Jackson]

What was the source of the line drawing of the Astrolabe above? A few years ago on holiday in Tasmania I came across Astrolabe antiquarian bookseller in Hobart. Excellent shop but no copies of Private Army in stock nor any knowledge of the PPA and its insignia. I put together a brief on the subject when I got back to UK - which was well received. I hope the badge is now on his business card.

[popski]

The shoulder flash looks similar to those second pattern flashes pictured in archive photos of the unit.

[popski]

The source was a book plate Popski had had commissioned before the war, I think. Interestingly, the one purported original brass badge I've been lucky enough to see replicates almost exactly some of the detailing of the bookplate.

Just to close on this matter, I think it's worth repeating what everyone already knows. PPA only ever had around 200 men pass through its ranks. If a decent proportion of genuine badges are retained by families of veterans, if a decent proportion were lost or destroyed and a certain number are held by collectors, the number of authentic badges floating around out there is infinitesimally small. Even knowing nothing about the unit history or the physical qualities of the badges, even the layman can say with certainty 99.999999% of all badges seen are not genuine.

Quite apart from that, it makes no sense that silver badges would have been commissioned by the handful of men who belonged to the nascent unit in '42. Firstly, they already had a badge, VP had given them a very fine one. Why would you spend your hard-earned splashing out on silver badges of poorer quality than the one you'd been issued with? Especially given that you'd have had the additional expense of having a die made, and few of you to share the cost. Secondly, PPA had, at that point, no laurels, no esprit, and a number of the men had already served with units which did have a growing reputation and which, one could argue, they may have been more proud of having belonged to at that point. Some might even have seen their service with PPA as nothing more than a brief secondment at that juncture. Given that DLO, and perhaps other members of LRDG, didn't regard VP's military prowess particularly highly, and perhaps even saw the unit as a bit of a joke - even their name was a joke! - I just don't buy this notion that the tiny establishment of PPA were out and about in Cairo commissioning silver badges to memorialise their as yet untried and untested unit. It just doesn't add up.

If they were for sweethearts, then why put a pair of highly impractical lugs on the back?

Anyway, for what they're worth, those are my thoughts - details wrong and logic wrong.

Regards,

P

[seebee1]

Some sound an logical points made P, but this does not truly explain the badge I posted. No one, including you, can be in any way sure or certain when it was manufactured. You have mentioned seeing a similar one that was sold on eBay a year or so back, it would be of much interest if you, or the person who bought it, posted it for comparison. Although I am repeating myself, my badge has hallmarks that I have not seen replicated anywhere. As with all such vexed subjects it is always the reverse of traditional law, guilty until proved innocent. In this instance, unless someone actually came forward and said they had made it, at what timescale I truly do not know, then the facts and truth will never be known. Regards, Clive.

[Kiwi ric]

Great thread,

SeeBee, there is known LRP badges with Hallmarks that have been faked,

so yes, hallmarks have been faked.

[seebee1]

Glad you are enjoying this thread Kiwi Ric, becoming a saga now, but hopefully informative. Can you post images of the fake hallmarks that you mention, are they stamped or cast, also are they Egyptian? You refer to LRP badges, are you aware of faked Egyptian hallmarks on a Popski badge? Regards, Clive.

[Kiwi ric]

What Im trying to point out is that yes they can and do fake assay stampings on badges.

Im not making any judgement on your badge, but you did say afew posts back you had never seen fake assay stamps. hence my post

I will post photos tomorrow when I get home from work

regards

-Ric

[Alan O]

This thread reminds me of a comment made by a forum member about the difference between UK and 3rd Reich collectors. UK badge collectors often assume a new variant is correct and wait for it to be proved a copy. 3rd Reich collectors know that the amount of money involved makes the forgery far more likely.

As far as SF badges go I put them in with the latter catagorey as 99.99% are fake.

this badge is not one of the original PPA badges. It is a very good copy where the copier has gone to the trouble of casting the hallmarks. This suggests to me that it has been done to deceive rather than as any wartme replacement. Apologies if this upsets anyone but my experience of SF dealers is not positive due to the amounts of money involved. The question you have to ask is would an auction house with a reputation to protect (not a dealer with a vested interest in convincing you that his stock is genuine) like Bosleys sell it for you. I suspect that they would not in this case.

[Peter Brydon]

I posted the attached from the MHS Bulletin of August 1950 previously but I dont apologise for doing so again because I think it is so interesting.



Popski says that he had no PPA badges left which implies that he had some but they had all gone and makes me think that collectors had written to him asking for badges.

It makes one wonder which types of badge they were. Also of interest is that in the same edition of the bulletin there was a list of WW2 badges that the Imperial War Museum were looking for to buy or exchange and these included a PPA shoulder title.So they were pretty scarce even in 1950.

P.B.

[seebee1]

Alan O your are of course totally correct in that many of the Special Force badges and insignias are fakes-copies or replicas. Equally your comment on the reputation and ethics of some Auction houses, but as everyone knows, not all abide by such a strict code of conduct. An item that is not "textbook" will often be dismissed, it is a safer option than ever offering something that may be questionable or involve too much hassle to verify or authenticate and in turn damage a reputation. As my badge is not for sale, the question as to whether or not a company such as Bosley's would or would not validate its authenticity is unlikely to arise. This forum will be the nearest it gets.

Regarding my badge I see no logic of it being made to deceive. This was not some sort of "sting" operation to make a shed-load of money, but an elderly lady, with some background behind her ownership of the badge, at a small country antiques fair some 30+ years ago and sold for the princely sum of a tenner.

I do not want to further repeat all that I have previously said about it, but look forward to seeing the hallmarks Kiwi Ric mentions and hopefully at least one other example of a similar Popski badge as mine.

Believe it or not I do not think for one moment that this badge is the "holy grail" and it may or may not have been manufactured in WW2. Although there is now a tsunami of comment against its originality I am yet not totally convinced one way or the other. Perhaps the next wave might do it, we will see!

Thank you for your posting PB, very informative.

Regards, Clive.

[elyisum]

Thanks for the reply Popski can you post a picture showing the 2nd pattern flash on a uniform?

I just checked the imperial war museum site it looks like they managed to get an example of a PPA shoulder flash that is very different to my example.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30103132

[popski]

Hi Elysium,

I haven't got a second pattern, I'm afraid, but a few are visible on The Special Forces Roll of Honour site, which has some wonderful pictures. The Friends of PPA hold many of the same pictures, but they're are a few I haven't seen. It's a great site, by the way. I think the IWM flash is probably a dress flash, as opposed to a more utilitarian one worn on the BD, so no immediate problem.

Re the Egyptian saga, I don't think that the good faith of the old lady or the three decades past necessarily helps the authenticity. People were faking badges in the 80s, and old ladies stated things in good faith that were actually incorrect. Even then there was such a thing as amnesia. I'm not trying to do a hatchet job on Clive or his badge, I just think all this debate is inspired by the triumph of hope over reality. The badge isn't worn, it's poorly cast from an incorrectly detailed die and, moreover, I doubt troopers were having these badges made in Cairo at the time. It's a nice fantasy. But this, like the Bomisa badges, like the London Badge and Button badges, the Gaunt examples and numerous others, are IMHO, post war repros.

P

[PembrokeYeo]

Is anyone able to post an example of an original beret badge, whether it be brass, white metal or silver? The forum has managed it for the LRDG extremely well! PY.