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#1
27-12-14, 09:31 AM
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4 SAI WW1 Shoulder Titles..questions?
Hi Guys
Can some of the experts please clarify a few questions, were those nice rather scarce SA Scottish titles private purchase or not, and secondly were they only for officers? The lack of them in circulation would suggest the latter. I had only one in my collection for years and then purchased another and on getting home found it was the same direction. HOWEVER what I discovered is that my original one was different (see second picture). The owner of my original one had removed the two thistle leaves from the Buck Head...I actually prefer the modified version, a lot less cluttered, how do you feel? Regards Brian 
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#2
28-12-14, 08:58 AM
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Hello Brian,
I've always believed they were worn on the greatcoat by the rank and file, I have certainly never thought of any 4th SAI stuff as rare in particular, it was all made here including their handsome buttons. Regards Frank
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#3
28-12-14, 10:07 AM
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Hi Brian,
According to the "guru" from Johannesburg, these were private purchase titles and were not allowed to be worn on the S.A. Scottish uniform. He stated the same for the buttons that are in Frank's photographs. I believe that the items were manufactured towards the end of the war and the badges and buttons do not "surface" often. I have a complete uniform in my collection where the owner proudly wore the shoulder titles and buttons on his tunic, whether this was added after the war I cannot confirm. A good find! Regards, Will
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#4
28-12-14, 10:13 AM
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sa scott.jpg
I also believe that these badges were worn by members of the S.A. Scottish pipe band. This is some of their items from my collection.
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#5
28-12-14, 10:59 AM
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Thanks guys for the reply
I have to agree with Will, these are seldom seen as opposed to the shoulder title below the 4 in your pic. It is interesting to hear that they were not meant to be worn but who can say? We need to find a picture to dispel that theory! Will how many pairs of them do you have? What is your opinion on the "modified" badge? Brian
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#6
28-12-14, 11:47 AM
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4 sai st.jpg
Hi Brian, This is a very rare version of a S.A. Scottish shoulder title. I have 2 sets in my collection of the one that you are referring too and possibly some spare somewhere. I like that badge that has been "altered", obviously the owner had his reasons? Regards, Will
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#7
28-12-14, 11:52 AM
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4 sai tunic.jpg
sa scott buttons.jpg sa bandsman.jpg On these uniform photographs, the shoulder title can be seen. Both uniforms indicate that the owner wore the S.A. Scottish buttons. Also notice the difference in the Ninth Scottish Division thistle which is another point of discussion.
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#8
28-12-14, 11:58 AM
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Will
Very nice, is this not a possible trench made version by some clever chap who was a little bored, and modified an official one? I like these oddities. The one I have is just a plain single curved South Africa with a 3 above it, I will take a pic when I get home. I also have a white metal version of the SA INF Version made by a firm in Richmond...not sure who wore them. Will post that as well. Brian
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#9
28-12-14, 12:09 PM
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I have 2 of the 9th Div thistle badges, sadly both have damage on their rears, need to get them repaired. Maybe they were sown on instead and the troops did not want to be poked and scratched?
I suspect there were a number of slight variations, it was a big issue I believe? Do you have any info on them? Brian
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#10
28-12-14, 12:19 PM
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thistsle 1.jpg
thistle 2.jpg Brian, Some people have claimed that the thistle was worn to indicate that the 1st South African Brigade was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal after the Battle of Arras. I do not believe this to be the case as the thistle as worn was to indicate membership of the 9th Scottish Division. When the Brigade joined the 66th East Lancaster Division this badge was no longer worn. The smaller one I believe to be the correct issue as they are rather scarce while the larger badge appears quiet often and I believe it was a collar badge worn by a Scottish Regiment (London Scottish?). The photographs indicate the difference and how they were worn. All my badges have lugs on them. Regards, Will
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#11
28-12-14, 12:20 PM
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Brian,
would the firm in Richmond be called Grigg by any chance? I understand the SA Brigade were stationed there and Grigg was a local jeweller and items were made to order by him? Perhaps your WM version was an Officer's? Here's a large Bokkie cap badge by this firm. Bok 006.jpg Bok 003.jpg regards, Iain Quote:
__________________
C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre
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#12
28-12-14, 01:22 PM
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Hello Iain,
The brigade had it's depot in Richmond as well as the SA Hospital too, this company were medalists and they must have made quite a number of badges for the members of the brigade, they are normally cast, I would say that they are certainly scarcer than the shoulder titles discussed in this thread. Regards Frank
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#14
04-01-15, 05:19 PM
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Gentlemen,
The small white metal thistles are described as London Scottish collars by Churchill and are shown in his book as such, however, whilst they are very common indeed, they are almost always sold as 9th Division formation badges, with the result that they can be very expensive indeed. I do believe that they were also issued and worn as such, you do see them on the original very dark blue cloth as well as "black", although, these latter are sometimes quite spurious, merely being married together. The larger thistle is a complete mystery, to me at least, what on earth are they, where do they come from, I certainly don't know the answer to that. The only thing I do know is that the examples that I have seen tended to turn up in South Africa, sometimes with a good provenance, but, why? I wondered if they might have been worn only by South African soldiers, but, if that were so, then again what exactly were they, could they have been made at the time for that very purpose, I somehow doubt it. Quote:
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#15
04-01-15, 08:27 PM
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Hello Brian,
Do yours have any fittings on them at all? The large thistles normally don't have normal copper wire lugs, all I have seen have a pair of flat sheet copper fixings instead. Regards Frank Quote:
Last edited by Frank Kelley; 05-01-15 at 08:10 AM.
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