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  #1  
Old 04-10-17, 01:08 PM
2032eric 2032eric is offline
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Default Dating woven formation patches

Hello All,

I would like to have some information on how one could date British woven formation badges? More precisely how to assess if the cloth insignia could have been worn in WWII?

I am a US Army WWII patches collector and on this field, the embrodery and the back of the badges are of great help. I guess that it should be the same with British ones.

I attache below multiple pictures of insignia I found on the net. Which ones are WWII period ones?

If there is any link on this forum where it has been already answered, I would be very grateful if someone could indicate it

Regards
Eric
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  #2  
Old 04-10-17, 06:42 PM
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badjez badjez is offline
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Default Woven

Can I clarify your terminology please.
To me, a woven badge is one where the pattern is formed at the time of weaving using different colours in the war and weft.

An embroidered badge is one where a piece of cloth has the pattern overlaid onto it using a needle and thread.

Most of the pictured badges are embroidered.

Stephen.
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Old 04-10-17, 09:10 PM
2032eric 2032eric is offline
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Stephen

Yes you are right. I tend to mix up these two words, although they don't have the same meaning. So my question is about the embroidered patches and not woven ones.

Eric
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Old 05-10-17, 06:53 AM
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Default

I would not want to steal the theme of this thread - which promises to be very educational ... But the dating of both Embroidered and Woven insignia would be enlightning. In fact the evolution of insignia manufacture during WW2 appears to be a minefield, given authorised and unauthorised sources of supply. While this thread looks to relate to British insignia, good work has been done on Canadian insignia. An authoritative look at British insignia would be most welcome.
Mike
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Old 05-10-17, 07:00 AM
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Default woven- embroidered

I think Jon Mills has a book on shoulder titles in the pipeline. I would recommend membership of the Military Heraldry Society to anyone interested in cloth items.

Until recent times Formation Signs have never been Ordnance issue, having been produced to local order, to an approved design, by the formation concerned.

The first unofficial formation signs were woven privately from Egyptian cotton.
These were supplemented by hand embroidered items, both commercial and made by local Women's Institutes. The first sanctioned, mass produced items were the printed badges made by the Calico Printers Association. The liberation of Europe led to Dutch companies producing woven badges, later the BAOR supplemented these with German manufactured Be-Vo weave items. (The Desert rats in the first thread are of that era).

Now open the flood gates of further information.

Stephen.
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Old 05-10-17, 07:31 AM
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Stephen and all
Yes indeed - looking forward to Jons book. It is partly through discussion with Jon regarding the complexity of local and unofficial manufacture, as well as evolution of approved designs that my understanding has progressed. More specifically: for Commando formations the variety of manufacture for early unofficial insignia is legion. The variety in subsequent, 'official', red on black designs also become more complex the more you look into it. Not to mention theatre made variants. And that is just one set of British WW2 units.
Mike
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Old 10-10-17, 07:39 PM
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Going back to the original question; 7th armoured division badges appear to be post-war German made. All others are consistent with known wartime manufacturing styles, but there are many variations and in many cases production was continued until well after the war so it is impossible to put a precise date on them.
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Old 10-10-17, 08:19 PM
2032eric 2032eric is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luc View Post
Going back to the original question; 7th armoured division badges appear to be post-war German made. All others are consistent with known wartime manufacturing styles, but there are many variations and in many cases production was continued until well after the war so it is impossible to put a precise date on them.
Thankyou!
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Old 11-10-17, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luc View Post
Going back to the original question; 7th armoured division badges appear to be post-war German made. All others are consistent with known wartime manufacturing styles, but there are many variations and in many cases production was continued until well after the war so it is impossible to put a precise date on them.
Not IMO, they are the Brabant weave, which first appear in late 1944, the post war German type are quite different type.
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Jerry
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