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  #1  
Old 22-08-15, 10:16 AM
4966Ian 4966Ian is offline
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Default 20th London - Invicta Button?

Hi there,

Hope someone can help with this query.

Below is a large Brass button, depicting a standing horse on a scroll inscribed "INVICTA".
Am I correct in thinking that this is for the 20th County of London?

The next part of my query is that the button has a diameter of 29mm - which is much larger than the usual greatcoat size button of 25/26mm. Is this usual for this Regiment?

Diameter = 29mm
Backmark = SPECIAL QUALITY

Any comments gratefully received.

Thanks

Ian
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Unknown Invicta.jpg (48.7 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg Unknown Invicta BK.jpg (51.5 KB, 10 views)
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  #2  
Old 22-08-15, 10:20 AM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Ian,
buttons are not my area but I'd be more inclined to think it was a Kent Yeomanry or Cyclist Bn button?

Andy
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  #3  
Old 22-08-15, 02:37 PM
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Cribyn Cribyn is offline
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Hello Ian

I believe you are right in your assumption that your button is for the 20th County of London.

In his excellent book on Royal Artillery Buttons Norman Litchfield illustrates this button in anodised version as being worn on the greatcoats of the 569th(M) LAA/SL Regt RA (The Queen's Own)(TA); size 26mm. There is an added note that the button is "as for the original Regimental button of the 20th London Regt".

I have not come across any as big as the one you have, most I have seen are roughly 24/26mm with and without rims. I would think that a greatcoat button is right for this extra large size!

Regards
Roger
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  #4  
Old 22-08-15, 03:51 PM
altcar73 altcar73 is offline
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This large button was worn (in brass) at one time on fire fighting tunics by Kent Fire Brigade.

Dave.
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  #5  
Old 22-08-15, 05:13 PM
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Cribyn Cribyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by altcar73 View Post
This large button was worn (in brass) at one time on fire fighting tunics by Kent Fire Brigade.

Dave.
Hello Dave

That's an interesting point. I thought the Kent Fire Brigade buttons had always been chrome/white metal.

In an article on Fire Brigade Buttons, Howard Ripley writing about the Kent Brigade said "although the design has remained the same, the Brigade adopted rimless buttons in 1974". The buttons were said to have a chrome finish.

If the Kent Fire Brigade did indeed use brass buttons at some point then there may well have been two 'organisations' using the same pattern of button (not for the first time I'm sure). This may well explain why I have "20th London" buttons in both rimmed and rimless versions!

Regards
Roger
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  #6  
Old 22-08-15, 05:34 PM
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magpie magpie is offline
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They would match the brass fire helmets untill the 20-30's wouldn't they.
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  #7  
Old 22-08-15, 08:25 PM
altcar73 altcar73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cribyn View Post
Hello Dave

That's an interesting point. I thought the Kent Fire Brigade buttons had always been chrome/white metal.

In an article on Fire Brigade Buttons, Howard Ripley writing about the Kent Brigade said "although the design has remained the same, the Brigade adopted rimless buttons in 1974". The buttons were said to have a chrome finish.

If the Kent Fire Brigade did indeed use brass buttons at some point then there may well have been two 'organisations' using the same pattern of button (not for the first time I'm sure). This may well explain why I have "20th London" buttons in both rimmed and rimless versions!

Regards
Roger
Roger,

When I used the term "Kent Fire Brigade" I should really have said Kent Fire Brigades.

I'll explain. The current Kent Fire Brigade was formed in 1948 and yes, their buttons although identical in design to yours have always had a chrome finish. However, prior to 1941 the fire brigades in Kent were organised in a rather disjointed way (as was the case in many parts of the UK at that time) with the various towns and villages running their own small Brigades. Some wore "generic" Kent helmet badges and buttons which simply showed the horse and Invicta scroll. The helmets and buttons being in brass. This was obviously an economy measure. In 1941 the NFS was established and then in 1948 the individual Brigades were re-established but on a County and County Borough basis. Thus, the "new" 1948 Kent Fire Brigade continued the use of the horse and Invicta scroll as part of the corporate image. So, what I'm saying is that your button is identical to that worn pre. 1941 by some fire brigades in Kent. The very large size would suggest use on a heavy serge fire fighting tunic. I hope this clarifies the matter.

Dave.
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  #8  
Old 22-08-15, 08:26 PM
altcar73 altcar73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magpie View Post
They would match the brass fire helmets untill the 20-30's wouldn't they.
Yes, I agree.

Dave.
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  #9  
Old 23-08-15, 09:54 AM
4966Ian 4966Ian is offline
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Hi Chaps,

Thank you for the identification and the background to the button.
I have to admit, I hadn't even considered the Fire Brigade as a possible answer as I had managed to convince myself it was an 'unusual' military button. But that would explain the much the much larger sized button.

Anyway, thats another button that can come out of the 'unknowns' box.

Thank you all for your time and replies.

All the best

Ian
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  #10  
Old 24-06-18, 02:03 PM
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Rob Miller Rob Miller is offline
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I also have one of these 29mm buttons and another 23mm button with no "Invicta" and a back mark I've not seen before.

Any thoughts?

Rob
Attached Images
File Type: jpg kent2.jpg (39.7 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg kent1.jpg (67.8 KB, 22 views)
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  #11  
Old 24-06-18, 03:52 PM
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btns btns is offline
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It is a backmark I have not seen before.
A brief search brings this up:

https://books.google.nl/books?id=eid...vey%22&f=false
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