Indian Ordnance badge

[RNeil]

Can anyone provide any info on this pattern of Indian Ordnance badge?
20171014_215533.jpg

[peter monahan]

It looks like a standard 1922 pattern badge - worn until 1954 when India became a Republic and the 'India' designation was dropped. I'm not sure whether the crown was dropped between 1947 and 1954 but suspect not.

[koi_hai]

This appears to be the pre-1922 badge of the Indian Odnance Dept. In 1922 a similar corps badge was introduced but with the scroll bearing the words 'Indian Army Ordnance Corps'. This continued till 1954 when the current badge came into use. Technically the badge with the crown should have been discontinued after India became a republic in 1950, but a delay in finalising the new crest led to its continued usage till 1954.

[peter monahan]

I stand corrected! Thank you, Ko Hai!

A number of units in the 'new' IA appear to have kept the crown until 1954, at which point the Lions of Ashoka replaced it. Tradition was and is very strong in the IA and old associations did not give way easily to directives from the box-wallahs in New Delhi!

[RNeil]

Originally Posted by koi_hai

This appears to be the pre-1922 badge of the Indian Odnance Dept.

Thanks for the info, I suspected as much.

[Piffer]

Originally Posted by peter monahan

It looks like a standard 1922 pattern badge - worn until 1954 when India became a Republic and the 'India' designation was dropped. I'm not sure whether the crown was dropped between 1947 and 1954 but suspect not.

Further on Indian Army Ordnance Corps badges, where would one place this badge? This is not a modern badge it was said to be worn in the 1920's. Any ideas?

[RNeil]

Originally Posted by Piffer

Further on Indian Army Ordnance Corps badges, where would one place this badge? This is not a modern badge it was said to be worn in the 1920's. Any ideas?

Now that's an interesting Ordnance Badge. Taking the crest from the Board of Ordnance Coat of Arms and placing a riband with the name of the Corps underneath it was an innovative idea and a change of the tradition of using the Ordnance shield. Obviously not a lasting design.

It was the practice in the early 20th century for some of the country's of the British Emire to have a separate Ordnance Department (Officers) and an Ordnance Corps (Other Ranks).

Just a stab in the dark but maybe this badge is for the pre-1922 Indian Army Ordnance Corps and the badge from my original post of this thread is the Badge of the Indian Army Ordnance Department.

Hopefully, somebody can provide the actual answer.

[Piffer]

Originally Posted by RNeil

Now that's an interesting Ordnance Badge. Taking the crest from the Board of Ordnance Coat of Arms and placing a riband with the name of the Corps underneath it was an innovative idea and a change of the tradition of using the Ordnance shield. Obviously not a lasting design.

It was the practice in the early 20th century for some of the country's of the British Emire to have a separate Ordnance Department (Officers) and an Ordnance Corps (Other Ranks).

Just a stab in the dark but maybe this badge is for the pre-1922 Indian Army Ordnance Corps and the badge from my original post of this thread is the Badge of the Indian Army Ordnance Department.

Hopefully, somebody can provide the actual answer.

These badges have pin fitting for wear in a pagri, berets had not been issued to IOR's in the 1920 or 1930s. It is quite possible that these badges were for wear with IORs of the Ordnance Corps, India and the other badge for officers. Thereafter sometime in late 1920's or 1930's a common badge was worn by both officers and others ranks in what became the IAOC. Can anyone shed more light on this?

[peter monahan]

I don't mind admitting that the mural crown and lightining bolts is a new one on me but I also admit, somewhat shamefacedly, to not paying a lot of attention to 'corps' and their insignia. Where is the illustration from, if I might ask?

[RNeil]

Originally Posted by peter monahan

I don't mind admitting that the mural crown and lightining bolts is a new one on me but I also admit, somewhat shamefacedly, to not paying a lot of attention to 'corps' and their insignia. Where is the illustration from, if I might ask?

Hi Peter, the origin of the crown and lightning bolts it that it was from the Coat of Arms for the Board of Ordnance (which dates back to the 1460's until 1855). The shield from this Coat of Arms has three cannons and cannonballs and is used on the badge for the Ordnance Corps of many the nations of the former British Empire and the present commonwealth.

Board of ordnance 1823.jpg

[Piffer]

Originally Posted by peter monahan

I don't mind admitting that the mural crown and lightining bolts is a new one on me but I also admit, somewhat shamefacedly, to not paying a lot of attention to 'corps' and their insignia. Where is the illustration from, if I might ask?

Quite right not much is known about badges of the Corps and Services of the Indian Army. The IAOC badge is ex Capt Ashok Nath's collection, the exact dates of wear and usage of the badge is not known except that it is from approx 1920's. While he has covered Cavalry and Infantry regiments, the other Arms and Services , except RIASC ( covered recently by a US Colonel in his detailed book on Logistic Corps of the Commonwealth) is still an unexplored field.

[peter monahan]

'Ex Captain Nath' explains a lot! Thanks. I would love to know, in round terms, how big that collection is/was. Sir John Chapple donated 6,000 items to the IWM and another 2,000, or possibly 3,000, to the Gurkha Museum, but he'd been collecting for 50+ years to my knowledge. I suspect Ashok's, if not as large contains some even greater rarities.

[Piffer]

Originally Posted by peter monahan

'Ex Captain Nath' explains a lot! Thanks. I would love to know, in round terms, how big that collection is/was. Sir John Chapple donated 6,000 items to the IWM and another 2,000, or possibly 3,000, to the Gurkha Museum, but he'd been collecting for 50+ years to my knowledge. I suspect Ashok's, if not as large contains some even greater rarities.

According to some reliable sources and some images of the collections seen, both collections are outstanding and have rarities. I have been fortunate in seeing some drafts of Capt Nath's unpublished work on Indian Infantry Regiments covering period 1746 to Post Independence, it's even bigger and more detailed than his previous book on the Indian Cavalry Regiments. The Infantry Volumes ( three of them) unfortunately they have not been published, according to him, no publishing house these days want to invest in such books since they are expensive to produce.

[peter monahan]

I get that! I, very reluctantly, decided not to invest in the Cavalry volume, although in the days when I actually collected, IA cavalry were my passion. I own his WWI book but appreciate that such labours of love will never be commercial success stories. In fact, my own modest, self-published work on WWI men from my area is costing me money, as I'm winding up getting paid for about half the copies which leave my hands.

I can only envy you if you've seen many images of either collection!

Originally Posted by Piffer

Further on Indian Army Ordnance Corps badges, where would one place this badge? This is not a modern badge it was said to be worn in the 1920's. Any ideas?

I have this information direct from Capt Nath
Ashok Nath James, two establishments of the "Old" ( pre-1947) Indian Army were said to have worn these type of badges. The first being HEIC's Indian Battalions of "Goldandauze" (Golandaz), i.e Artillery, they wore largish badges (6.5 cm high) in brass or gilding metal on their pagris. Interestingly before the transfer of the Govt of India from the EIC to the Crown in 1858, the staff of the Ordnance Department recruited from the Artillery only. Perhaps this connection or tradition was carried over to the Indian Ordnance Department, the latter also wore similar badges though with scroll below inscribed INDIAN ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS, albeit prior to 1925, and on some of their badges. Enclosing an image of badges here which explains it further. The badge on the extreme left is that worn by Gun Lascars of the Golandaz, it is of British manufacture.

Heraldically the badge can be described thus: "out of the Mural Crown Argent, a dexter Cubit arm, the hand grasping a thunderbolt winged and enflamed". It represented Tonatani- the Thundering One- ie the God Jupiter (Roman Mythology).

The single pictures are my badge and the picture with 4 badges is the one referred to by Ashok Nath.

This badge has appeared in several posts with some thoughts about it being a Tyneside Signals badge as I think there was a formation patch showing a similar design.

Hope this helps

James