SA 7th Arm. Div. BD blouse and beret - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

loupie1961 · #1 12-03-14, 06:22 PM

I have got in my collection the BD blouse, trousers and RTR black beret badged to a former member of the IVth Armoured Car Recce regiment, captured at Sidi Rezigh in november 1941. He was released form the XVIII Stamm Lager in Carinthia, Austria, on May 15th 1945 and discharged from the Army as a private in the SATC in the UK on November 19th, 1945. There are several inconsistencies in the lot, because the BD blouse sports the two SA orange tabs, the 7th Armoured Division insignia (correct, since the IVth SA ACR Rgt. was the only SA unit to have served with the 7th Arm. Div.), 5 good conduct chevrons, Africa Star and Africa Service Medal ribbons and a yellow/green braided lanyard, whereas the RTR black beret is embellished with a British RTR, not a SATC cap badge. Could the owner have been issued with the BD and the RTR cap badge while he was in the UK awaiting the discharge from the Army? Has the lot been put together? What's the meaning of the yellow/green lanyard? Something to do with the 6th SA Armoured Division? The previous owner would not depart form the paperwork coming with the lot, but he let me have copies, which I would rather not post here, since the original documents are not in my possession. Many thanks in advance for your knowledge, gentlemen!

Brian Conyngham · #2 13-03-14, 05:59 AM

Loupie

Difficult questions you have asked, to be honest this could be a made up lot but then again it might not be. However we do know that the badge on beret is incorrect and the orange tabs appear to be a little "new" for being 70 years old. As for lanyards I cannot help.

Brian

Alex Rice · #3 13-03-14, 06:25 AM

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that this was what the guy wore at the end of the war. Many ex-servicemen waited for transport home in the UK and would have made sure they had some sort of insignia to id them and active servicemen. With the shortage of Colonial badges in the UK any suitable badge could have been worn, so I'm sure this is correct.
Cheers,
Alex

loupie1961 · #4 13-03-14, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Rice

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that this was what the guy wore at the end of the war. Many ex-servicemen waited for transport home in the UK and would have made sure they had some sort of insignia to id them and active servicemen. With the shortage of Colonial badges in the UK any suitable badge could have been worn, so I'm sure this is correct.
Cheers,
Alex

Thank you Alex: that exactly how I feel. Even the beret does not to be ordnance as is very likely a private purchase, so that the guy could desembark in South Africa correctly dressed as a tankie...

Old Smelly · #5 13-03-14, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Rice

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that this was what the guy wore at the end of the war. Many ex-servicemen waited for transport home in the UK and would have made sure they had some sort of insignia to id them and active servicemen. With the shortage of Colonial badges in the UK any suitable badge could have been worn, so I'm sure this is correct.
Cheers,
Alex

I tend to agree. Liberated PoWs were often fitted out with clean/new uniform asap as their clothing was often in poor condition and also the possibility of lice etc. Many were given new kit by their liberating troops, I had a group of items that belonged to a Royal Artillery officer whos camp was taken by the US Army and his kit consisted of a mix of British and US items. I have also seen a few period photos (Picture Post or similar), showing returning British PoW getting off of a plane in UK wearing assorted clothing including German items.
Your BD set is probably fine, were there any clues on the paperwork?
Lee

loupie1961 · #6 13-03-14, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Smelly

I tend to agree. Liberated PoWs were often fitted out with clean/new uniform asap as their clothing was often in poor condition and also the possibility of lice etc. Many were given new kit by their liberating troops, I had a group of items that belonged to a Royal Artillery officer whos camp was taken by the US Army and his kit consisted of a mix of British and US items. I have also seen a few period photos (Picture Post or similar), showing returning British PoW getting off of a plane in UK wearing assorted clothing including German items.
Your BD set is probably fine, were there any clues on the paperwork?
Lee

Not much, Lee, since as a matter of fact the poor guy sat in his Stalag in Austria from December 1941: there's a letter from the commander of C Squadron, IVth Arm. Car recce Rgt to the guy's wife, dated Durban, 19th May 1942, his application for campaign medals, his service records where he is stated as missing on November 24th 1941, and confirmed POW from December 5th 1941, released from the Stalag (presumably in early May), arrived in the UK on May 15th 1945 and discharged from the UDF on November 19th 1945. There is a postcard sent from Stamm-Lager XVIII a and a photograph on a SATC postcard where the guy is wearing KD and a black beret with a cap badge that appearently looks like the 2nd or 4th SA Infantry but I guess is really SATC.

Madziro · #7 13-03-14, 11:57 AM

Have this SA BD blouse in the collection for comparison. He was a signaller with 3rd Transvaal Scottish and was German born Jewish bloke. Have attached a copy of the man's records. They make interesting reading.

iaindh · #8 13-03-14, 01:23 PM

Hi Loupie,

I find your SATC postcard interesting; I wasnt aware that the colours were the same as the British RTR
And those shorts are short

Quote:

Originally Posted by loupie1961

Not much, Lee, since as a matter of fact the poor guy sat in his Stalag in Austria from December 1941: there's a letter from the commander of C Squadron, IVth Arm. Car recce Rgt to the guy's wife, dated Durban, 19th May 1942, his application for campaign medals, his service records where he is stated as missing on November 24th 1941, and confirmed POW from December 5th 1941, released from the Stalag (presumably in early May), arrived in the UK on May 15th 1945 and discharged from the UDF on November 19th 1945. There is a postcard sent from Stamm-Lager XVIII a and a photograph on a SATC postcard where the guy is wearing KD and a black beret with a cap badge that appearently looks like the 2nd or 4th SA Infantry but I guess is really SATC.

loupie1961 · #9 13-03-14, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iaindh

Hi Loupie,

I find your SATC postcard interesting; I wasnt aware that the colours were the same as the British RTR
And those shorts are short

Sure they were!

what about the yellow/green lanyard, Iain? Any hints?

iaindh · #10 13-03-14, 02:27 PM

Hi Dudley,

interesting little history although his record, (as is often the case,) seems to be in different orders. Initially the KR then 3 TS.
The BD Blouse has no titles on it; what unit would this guy have been in, in Italy. The 3 TS were annihilated at Sidi Rezegh and ceased to exist. Obviously he escaped. Was he then attached to the PAG? I cant make out the 3rd unit he served with?

regards, Iain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madziro

Have this SA BD blouse in the collection for comparison. He was a signaller with 3rd Transvaal Scottish and was German born Jewish bloke. Have attached a copy of the man's records. They make interesting reading.

iaindh · #11 13-03-14, 03:14 PM

Hi Loupie,

I forgot to say but its a nice post you put up.

The British Reconnaissance Corps had a green and gold lanyard and they were in Italy? Maybe a souvenir if its the same?

Quote:

Originally Posted by loupie1961

Sure they were!

what about the yellow/green lanyard, Iain? Any hints?

loupie1961 · #12 13-03-14, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iaindh

Hi Loupie,

I forgot to say but its a nice post you put up.

The British Reconnaissance Corps had a green and gold lanyard and they were in Italy? Maybe a souvenir if its the same?

The British Recce Corps sure was in Italy, and it would be very interesting to know which 8th Army unit entered the StaLag XVIIIa. I guess that our guy could have received the lanyard as a former member of a Recce unit? Did SA recce units wear such a lanyard, in the event?

Brian Conyngham · #13 13-03-14, 03:58 PM

Have you pulled his papers from the Pretoria archives?

Brian

loupie1961 · #14 13-03-14, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Conyngham

Have you pulled his papers from the Pretoria archives?

Brian

Not me, Brian, but the seller who sold me the lot has got some copies of the records, although I guess are not complete...

iaindh · #15 13-03-14, 05:30 PM

I cant answer that for you; I dont know if anyone else can?

Quote:

Originally Posted by loupie1961

The British Recce Corps sure was in Italy, and it would be very interesting to know which 8th Army unit entered the StaLag XVIIIa. I guess that our guy could have received the lanyard as a former member of a Recce unit? Did SA recce units wear such a lanyard, in the event?