Legion of Frontiersmen

[Neil Pearce]

agreed attilla!

Here are a few pictures I have. I can't recall where the small "collection" picture came from, but this shows the slight variations.

The "garage" pattern and other are mine, and would welcome comments as always.

Regards, Neil

[atillathenunns]

Neil, I must admit I am leaning towards the "garage" pattern being late war, and suspect it was produced as an alternative to the men of the 25th RF than wearing the standard City of London RF badge.
More pictures with positive id on the badges are definitely needed.

Brent

[Alan O]

Brent,

By late war the Army was supplying all regts with issue badges in this case RF badges. Also by 1917-18 the 25th bn was in Africa so if they were in need of locallly made badges then they would have has cast ones rather than modified Gren gds badges. However in 1914-15 there was a shortage of badges which is why privately issued badges were used by Pals Bns. The modified Gren gds badges were presumed to be a local stop-gap solution before the other 25th badges were produced.

Alan

[atillathenunns]

Alan, I am leaning towards late war based on a scale of photographic evidence.

I also appreciate the supply shortages of uniforms and equipment in 1914 and 1915, as photographs during this period often show recruits drilling in civilian clothing.

However, I believe the 25th were a bit different due to them being declined for service in September 1914. As such the gap between the recruitment of the 24th & 25th RF Battalions was a couple of months, compared to around nine Fusilier Battalions that were formed in September 1914.

It should also be considered that the dispatching of the 25th to a combat zone was a priority for the War Office, and unlike the other Fusilier Battalions that were formed during the war, the 25th did not receive the usual military training, instead the members of 25th were generally only accepted on proof of previous military service.

If indeed the ‘garage’ pattern was made prior to the 25th departing for East Africa, I am sure a photo of it being worn prior to 1918 would have been produced by now.

[Neil Pearce]

good arguments either way guys. I must say that despite the lack of photographic evidence I follow Alan's logic. I am sure that I have read somewhere about the location these were made. Ages ago, so memory fails me.

Cheers, Neil

[atillathenunns]

Neil, I am definitely keeping an open mind and I am only too happy to be turned to the dark side.
However before I get myself fitted out with a storm troopers helmet, I am going to need to see some proof.
I for one would like to see these writings that define them as pre East Africa ‘garage’ manufacture.

[Alan O]

If these badges were late war then why use a Gren gds badge (how do you get Gren gds badges when you are in Southern Africa?)when you could have added a scroll to an issued RF badge and had the same effect?

Any late war photo merely proves that they were still in use. For example there are lots of photos of Bham pals badges still in use in 1918 and early 1919 but the badges were issued in 1915 only. The owners had kept hold of them for 4 years.

Alan

[badgecollector]

hi guys
what do you think of this one?
bc

[dragonz18]

bc,
IMO ,Neil's badge , RH pic, top of this page,has the correct flame shape,crown position & slider length for the O/R's die struck,GM version of this badge.
Cheers !
Steve

[SteveE]

Some interesting developments and points of view being expressed.

I will admit to having been of the opinion that the 'garage' version was an early version badge worn sometime before the 25th RF went overseas in April 1915 but Brent's postings have got me reassessing my position and I think he may possibly be onto something.

I have two group photos of members of the 25th RF that I'd date to April 1915 and therefore just before the battalion shipped overseas. All the men, with a couple of exceptions, are wearing badges that can best be described as 1/ from Brent's post #67 (the exceptions are wearing standard RF badges).

The image of Dartnell, post #75, is from a painting and is not clear as to badge type. There is however a better 'real' photo available of him that appears to show the badge is that with 'stalk', i.e. version 2/ from post #67. Dartnell was killed in action on 3rd September 1915 so is again good dating evidence of that type of badge.

The only image we've got (so far) of the 'garage' version, 3/ in post #67, is the one I posted from the Sergeant's group of 1918 and is identifed as being worn by Sergt. Southall. Checking through my records of the battalion Sergt. Southall is likely to be Sergt. Harry Stanley Southall (he's the only Southall I've identifed as serving with the battalion).

Southall enlisted in June 1915 (after the 25th RF had gone overseas) and initially served overseas with the 12th RF (6th October 1915 to 2nd May 1916) until wounded. On recovery he was posted to the 25th RF and served overseas with them from 10th February 1917.

This would suggest that by late 1916, early 1917, there may have been a shortage of 'proper' 25th RF badges and a local UK produced version was cobbled together for an, as yet, undetermined period of time. Why they didn't use a standard RF badge and modify that with the addition of the scroll is the one thing I can't explain.

I do therefore think that Brent has a very good point and, at the moment, I've convinced myself at least that it's definitely a point of view worth considering.

Look forward to your thoughts on the theory.

Steve

[atillathenunns]

Steve, good to see you are doing your homework as we go.

I think I should point out that I suspect the so called "garage" pattern was produced on the Battalions return to England, and am of the opinion that the cast versions of the regulation 25th RF badge were the ones that were produced in Africa.

I would also like to offer up that the regulation badge of the 25th RF Battalion (Type with the horse shoe style scroll, where the scroll does not touch the flames and the bottom of the grenade sits on a stalk above the scroll) based on it being the rarest of all the 25th RF badges, IMO is most likely to be the first issue regimental badge of the 25th RF.

Brent

[SteveE]

I agree that the 'garage' version was produced in the UK but I'm not sure we can claim it to be a 1918 version based on a single photograph, as Alan points out it could have been worn throughout. What we can say, with the evidence presented so far, is that it appears likely that it post dates the two 'regulation' badges (1/ and 2/ in Post #67) and could conceivably date from the end of 1916/start of 1917 or perhaps later.

I'm in agreement that the cast versions of the regulation badge (1/ in post #67) originated somewhere in Africa and were based on the badge already being worn when the battalion proceeded overseas.

I'm also in general agreement that the 'stalk' version (2/ in post #67) is an early version of badge but I'm going to throw a further possibility into the mix based on the photographic evidence so far. I think that particular variant could possibly be an Officer's version whilst the other type (1/) was for the Other Ranks as it would appear that the two seem to be mutually exclusive.

Regards

Steve

[atillathenunns]

Steve, as a student of New Zealand military badges and headdress, I take my hat off to you.
My playing devils advocate has certainly moved this discussion up a notch.

However, it will definitely come down to photographic evidence and historical documentation to fully understand the order of the 25ths badges. But at least we are working towards narrowing down which photos we will need.

Your comment on how we should describe the so-called ‘garage’ pattern is most acceptable, although I do doubt we will find any evidence of the ‘garage’ pattern being worn prior to the Battalions arrival in England. I am keeping an open mind and quite willing to thrash out the pros and cons through discussion.

I too have some interesting observations/theories regarding Officers verses ORs badges that are very similar to yours. But have my hands tied in regards to posting these photos to bring them into the discussion.

[atillathenunns]

Just to push the discussion along, I thought it might be interesting to put these 25th badges into order according to Atilla’s logic.

General Pattern Royal Fusiliers (City of London) Regulation Cap Badge.


25th Royal Frontiersmen Fusiliers Type 1 (Main Body)


25th Royal Frontiersmen Fusiliers Type 2 (Main Body)


25th Royal Frontiersmen Fusiliers Type 3 (Reinforcements)


25th Royal Frontiersmen Fusiliers Type 4 (Reinforcements)


25th Royal Frontiersmen Fusiliers Type 5 (Field manufacture)


25th Royal Frontiersmen Fusiliers Type 6 (Unofficial version)



I have noticed the type 3 has been referred to as a reproduction, but until someone can provide proof that it is a reproduction I think it important that it be included.

Brent

[SteveE]

Brent

Thanks for posting the chronology. Whilst I agree in principle with the order I have concerns that there are, apparently, at least six versions of a badge for a battalion that only existed for three years and numbered little more than a couple of thousand men during it's existance.

Would that number of badges really have been produced in such a short space of time? I don't think so and it does makes me wonder which ones are the real ones and how can we figure out which ones are the good ones.

Regards

Steve