Legion of Frontiersmen

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

It's nothing like the Royal Fusilers badge though, even taking the Order of the Garter and central rose off the RF badge the flames are completely different. Logically a scroll ought to have been attached to a regular RF badge of which there were a plenty but as Alan as said an obscure Grenadier Guards badge was chosen to adapt.

Hi Keith,

I think we are both talking about different badges, this is probably due to my reluctance to use the first and second pattern terminologies.

The badge I was referring to as the ‘regulation badge’ is the so-called ‘second pattern.’

And yes, I was mainly referring to the style of flames, as to me these seem to differ between the various Fusilier Regiments.

As previously mentioned it has been a while since I collected British badges, and unfortunately I do not have the RF (COLR) badge in question.
Taking into account that my British badge books are extremely dated, I could well be wrong, but it looks like a match to me.

Cheers
Brent

[atillathenunns]

I forgot to mention that the badge in my previous post is the original badge for the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment).

[SteveE]

Originally Posted by ncc

is there any contemporary written evidence that this badge existed,

I thought I had a written reference to this badge that wasn't from either Westlake or Kipling & King but cannot find it. I could well be mistaken and that the first references I've got to the 'garage' version are indeed the sources stated above.

However, things have moved on a little since my last post and I've now got a copy of a photo that appears to show the 'garage' version badge being worn. I'm not going to post the whole image, for the same reasons that Brent wouldn't in an earlier post, but I'm sure this cropped view won't compromise the situation.

I look forward to your thoughts.

Regards

Steve

[ncc]

its certainly different to the cast one,the centre certainly looks like a gg badge but the scroll is also different to the 'garage' one in k&k.
if only the old pics could be sharpened up.
Bob

[SteveE]

It's a shame about the resolution but this is the only image I've come across that shows any badge looking remotely like the 'garage' version. As you say, the grenade certainly appears to be more like the Grenadier Guards badge than a Royal Fusiliers version and the scroll, although not exactly like that shown in K&K, is sufficiently close to be possible? After all I'd expect there to be some variation in the scroll as each one is going to be individually made rather than being 'mass' produced using a repeatable process.

Regards

Steve

[Neil Pearce]

This thread demonstrates exactly what I like about this forum. Question the accepted knowledge. After all, quite a few published works have all been proved to contain incorrect information. Nobody is infallible....

Given what I said above, I am convinced my "Garage" version came though an unimpeachable source. I know that deejayuu had one for sale recently, and this example looked very good to me as well. Despite this version being rough, there is no doubt that it is difficult to copy. Added to this, one rarely sees them, which does suggest the repro guys have been reluctant to attempt copies?

At the time of writing, I am of the belief that this badge was produced in workshops, whether the terminology used suggests doubt or not. It will be interesting to see what the historians turn up.

Cheers, Neil

[atillathenunns]

Steve, although the photo is not the best, I believe the badge in the photo does conform to the one that Steve (dragonz18) has in his second post on this thread. (Referred to as a 1st pattern/garage version)

As such I believe we have speculative evidence that the 25th RF Battalion wore at least 4 variations of badges.

1/ Regulation badge of the 25th RF Battalion (Type with the horse shoe style scroll, where the scroll touches the flames and the bottom of the grenade)

2/ Regulation badge of the 25th RF Battalion (Type with the horse shoe style scroll, where the scroll does not touch the flames and the bottom of the grenade sits on a stalk above the scroll)

3/ The so called 1st pattern/garage version.

4/ Badge similar to the regulation badge but without scroll.

This of course can be complicated by the addition of bronze and brass versions.

I believe we still need more period photographs and historical records to conclusively prove our theories, especially when it comes to what order they were worn, but I believe we are on the right track.

Steve by any chance do you have an idea of when the photo was taken, and is it an officer or ORs that we are viewing?

These are croppings from the group photo of the officers I mentioned earlier.

Brent

[SteveE]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

As such I believe we have speculative evidence that the 25th RF Battalion wore at least 4 variations of badges.

1/ Regulation badge of the 25th RF Battalion (Type with the horse shoe style scroll, where the scroll touches the flames and the bottom of the grenade)

2/ Regulation badge of the 25th RF Battalion (Type with the horse shoe style scroll, where the scroll does not touch the flames and the bottom of the grenade sits on a stalk above the scroll)

3/ The so called 1st pattern/garage version.

4/ Badge similar to the regulation badge but without scroll.

Brent

The image was taken around the same time as that of the officers you've shown, i.e. early 1918 and is of the sergeants of the battalion.

There's an interesting mix of badges on display, 29 in total of which;
21 conform to your 1/ above.
1 appears to be as per your 2/ above (this appears to be worn by an officer, Lt. Hollis on your photo).
1 (possibly 2) conform to 3/ the 'garage' version.
4 are without the scroll as per 4/.

Regards

Steve

[Neil Pearce]

Can anyone post an actual image of the version without a scroll?

The next question is whether the collar badge is the same as the cap? Certainly looks similar to me...

[atillathenunns]

Steve, I am assuming that none of the NCOs are wearing collar badges in your photo?

[SteveE]

Brent

Three CSMs and a Sergeant are wearing collar badges, they appear to be smaller versions than the officer's type.

I guess it's conceivable that they're the Fusiliers grenade usually seen worn on the shoulder although it's hard to tell because of the image resolution.

Regards

Steve

[atillathenunns]

Steve, any chance you could crop a hat and shoulder shot of a WO wearing collar badges?

I would be also very interested to see what the badge books that have been mentioned have to say.
If someone could e-mail me some scans it would be much appreciated.

Cheers
Brent

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by SteveE

Brent

The image was taken around the same time as that of the officers you've shown, i.e. early 1918 and is of the sergeants of the battalion.

There's an interesting mix of badges on display, 29 in total of which;
21 conform to your 1/ above.
1 appears to be as per your 2/ above (this appears to be worn by an officer, Lt. Hollis on your photo).
1 (possibly 2) conform to 3/ the 'garage' version.
4 are without the scroll as per 4/.

Regards

Steve

Steve,

when you say that '4 are without the scroll as per 4/.' - I think this may be the standard RF badge. I have a seen a photo of a 25th manwearing the normal fusilers badge next to his mate wearing a scrolled 25th one.

Alan

[SteveE]

Alan

I think you're right in that they're a standard RF badge, I don't in any way think they're specifically a 25th RF badge. After the initial battalion and a couple of reinforcement drafts posting overseas the subsequent reinforcement drafts were drawn from men returning to action having served with other RF battalions. To continue wearing their existing RF badge would no doubt have been quite understandable.


Brent

Image attached as requested, this is the Sergeant but all three CSMs are the same also, this just seemed to be the clearest of the four.


Regards

Steve

[atillathenunns]

Chaps, it appears we all starting to come to the same conclusions.

The variations of badges worn by the officers and NCOs of the Battalion IMO certainly point to a shortage of regulation 25th RF badges prior to their disbandment.

Neil, any chance that you may be able to supply an image of the photo you mentioned?

The following picture is of the famous Lieutenant Dartnell who was killed on the 3rd September 1915, so it provides an interesting perspective of badges worn in early 1915.