Green Jackets Brigade Quandry

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Yes Mark, I accept that it might well be a badge adopted by all three battalions, as formed by the old regiments, for the pouch belts. The smaller size made me think it must be for SNCOs, but that is just supposition. I knew (recall) that the same cap badge was worn by all three battalions, but I vaguely remember that many officers continued to wear RB pouch belt badges (because of their similarity) and was unsure if the ex KRRC did the same. It's all a bit hotch potch in some respects.

It can be clearly seen in the images that they did. This applies to KRRC and the RB. Obviously iis easy enough to pick out the shape of the KRRC cross.
No collars badges were worn in the Brigade.Although,some officers wore the cord and button (Ox & Bucks)in greens. Each Btn wore the Green Jackets Brigade cloth title ,red on green. But they wore their own Btn blackened metal title on the epaulettes(43rd & 52nd,KRRC and RB).In addition, each Btns Officers wore the silver bugle on a coloured boss. 1st green,2nd red and 3rd black.
Unfortunately,i cant find any images relating to the period which show the pouch only the front. But i do have images of RGJ wearing both the RGJ plate,KRRC plate(still with Victorian Crown ) and an RB plate (guelphic crown). I cant make out which RB plate it is.
On to the pouch,the RGJ images clearly show the KRRC bugle and the RB bugle being worn. The KRRC bugle is similar to that of the LI but if you look at the bottom there is no zigzag either side of the central ferrule. The RB bugle is more ornate,slightly smaller with 2 small swallow tails coming from the top knot. It has the zigzags.
I think the KRRC became the std one for the RGJ although you could wear an RB one.
I have 3 different KRRC ones,HM silver (1964) ,silver plate and a white metal.

[MBrockway]

Originally Posted by Mike H

In addition, each Btns Officers wore the silver bugle on a coloured boss. 1st green,2nd red and 3rd black.

Just to qualify this slightly Mike, for other readers, my trawl was for officers in full No1 Dress where of course they're wearing the forage cap with peak. All these images show the new Green Jacket Brigade badge, not the corded boss 'cherry'.

Pre-1958, officers and WO2 and higher in the KRRC wore the red cord boss and silver bugle with this headgear.

Your reference to the green/red/black corded bosses 1958-1966 applies to the FS side cap only.

I presume the new Green Jacket Brigade badge was also worn with the beret.

Mark

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Mike H

It can be clearly seen in the images that they did. This applies to KRRC and the RB. Obviously iis easy enough to pick out the shape of the KRRC cross.
No collars badges were worn in the Brigade.Although,some officers wore the cord and button (Ox & Bucks)in greens. Each Btn wore the Green Jackets Brigade cloth title ,red on green. But they wore their own Btn blackened metal title on the epaulettes(43rd & 52nd,KRRC and RB).In addition, each Btns Officers wore the silver bugle on a coloured boss. 1st green,2nd red and 3rd black.
Unfortunately,i cant find any images relating to the period which show the pouch only the front. But i do have images of RGJ wearing both the RGJ plate,KRRC plate(still with Victorian Crown ) and an RB plate (guelphic crown). I cant make out which RB plate it is.
On to the pouch,the RGJ images clearly show the KRRC bugle and the RB bugle being worn. The KRRC bugle is similar to that of the LI but if you look at the bottom there is no zigzag either side of the central ferrule. The RB bugle is more ornate,slightly smaller with 2 small swallow tails coming from the top knot. It has the zigzags.
I think the KRRC became the std one for the RGJ although you could wear an RB one.
I have 3 different KRRC ones,HM silver (1964) ,silver plate and a white metal.

Thank you Mike, that’s very interesting and I shall have to look for the website (OBLI?) that shows the images to which you refer. I am kicking myself about the shoulder titles as I know them (and the later RGJ pattern) well, but had allowed them to slip my mind. Returning to the subject of this thread, have we reached a conclusion/consensus on what it is for?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by MBrockway

I presume the new Green Jacket Brigade badge was also worn with the beret.

Mark

Yes it was Mark.

[MBrockway]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Yes Mark, I accept that it might well be a badge adopted by all three battalions, as formed by the old regiments, for the pouch belts. The smaller size made me think it must be for SNCOs, but that is just supposition. I knew (recall) that the same cap badge was worn by all three battalions, but I vaguely remember that many officers continued to wear RB pouch belt badges (because of their similarity) and was unsure if the ex KRRC did the same. It's all a bit hotch potch in some respects.

I've been focussing on the badge used on the back pouch based mainly on (a) it being the same size as the cap badge (which is current Rifles practice); and (b) it has two screw posts north and south (again as per current Rifles practice).

I was less keen on it being the badge worn on the front cross belt because the examples I have seen of these have generally had four screw posts and a large backing plate.

Some further digging into the current Rifles practice suggests though that the smaller SNCO's front cross belt badge in fact only has two screw posts and they're mounted N and S.

Toby's right then that this could also be a new front cross belt badge adopted by the former OBLI who had no tradition of any cross belt badge at all.

Mark

[Mike H]

My apologies,cord boss for fs hat,cap badge for beret.
Ill post the pouch badge images later on.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by MBrockway

I've been focussing on the badge used on the back pouch based mainly on (a) it being the same size as the cap badge (which is current Rifles practice); and (b) it has two screw posts north and south (again as per current Rifles practice).

I was less keen on it being the badge worn on the front cross belt because the examples I have seen of these have generally had four screw posts and a large backing plate.

Some further digging into the current Rifles practice suggests though that the smaller SNCO's front cross belt badge in fact only has two screw posts and they're mounted N and S.

Toby's right then that this could also be a new front cross belt badge adopted by the former OBLI who had no tradition of any cross belt badge at all.

Mark

Your concluding two paragraphs sum up my rationale well, I was aware of the belt front badge being much larger for officers but thought that the subject badge with its two posts was a likely size for the SNCOs version.

[Mike H]

The RGJ belt badge is the same size as the cap badge.
The Rifles wbc badge is the same size as the SNCOs crossbelt badge.Approx the same size as youd expect a cap badge to be.
In the IWM collections ,it mentions an RGJ crossbelt badge for NCOs and one for WOs and Officers. The NCOs is decribed as anodised on 2 screws ,same size as a cap badge.Unfortunately,there is no images of it.

[Mike H]

As promised 2 pouch badges.
The left hand one is of the KRRC pattern,the right,the Rifle Brigade pattern.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Mike H

As promised 2 pouch badges.
The left hand one is of the KRRC pattern,the right,the Rifle Brigade pattern.

Thank you Mike. Did the OBLI wear their old cap badge on the pouch? Given its longstanding simplicity it would have made eminent sense to do so.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Thank you Mike. Did the OBLI wear their old cap badge on the pouch? Given its longstanding simplicity it would have made eminent sense to do so.

Dont know Toby, as i said in a previous post. I do have one ,but i believe its modern and to the Light Division band . They wore a mixture of LI,RGJ and the Rifles insignia and uniform before becoming the Rifles band. The cap badge was the old OBLI cap badge.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Dont know Toby, as i said in a previous post. I do have one ,but i believe its modern and to the Light Division band . They wore a mixture of LI,RGJ and the Rifles insignia and uniform before becoming the Rifles band. The cap badge was the old OBLI cap badge.

Thanks Mike, I’m sorry if you are having to repeat yourself, but I think you might agree that to say that the picture is complicated is an understatement.

[MBrockway]

For what it's worth, given the KRRC and the RB used the strung hunting horn as their back pouch badge and that the same was the old OBLI cap badge, I'd say the odds were against the 1st Green Jackets (43rd and 52nd) using the new Green Jacket Brigade wreathed Maltese Cross badge rather than the strung hunting horn on their back pouch.

I'm increasingly agreeing with Toby that this is probably the smaller SNCO front cross belt badge worn by the OBLI/1st Green Jackets (43rd and 52nd) after 1958.

A minor factor against this could be that this would then leave the OBLI with only the general Brigade identity on their cross belts, whereas the two rifles regiments retained their separate regimental distinctions on theirs. Perhaps hard to see the senior ranked regiment tolerating that even when there was no regimental tradition of rifles cross belts?

Unfortunately the OBLI is the line of the RGJ family tree for which I have the least material
Mark

[MBrockway]

Finally found a photo of the cross belt being worn in this Dec 1963 photo of members of the 1st Green Jackets, 43rd and 52nd out in the Far East ...



© John Cowan and RGJ BAND 2017

Original here: THE ROYAL GREEN JACKETS BAND & BUGLES

It appears to me to be the old OBLI strung hunting horn.

1963 definitely falls in the Green Jacket Brigade period.

Mark

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by MBrockway

Finally found a photo of the cross belt being worn in this Dec 1963 photo of members of the 1st Green Jackets, 43rd and 52nd out in the Far East ...



© John Cowan and RGJ BAND 2017

Original here: THE ROYAL GREEN JACKETS BAND & BUGLES

It appears to me to be the old OBLI strung hunting horn.

1963 definitely falls in the Green Jacket Brigade period.

Mark

Thats very interesting,never seen that one before. Throws a massive spanner at what weve discussed. Its a shame you cant see whats on his pouch.