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  #16  
Old 17-10-17, 06:06 AM
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Mike H Mike H is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fougasse1940 View Post
The length of the bolts suggests a car plaque badge, but hallmarked silver seems a bit decadent for a car plaque.

Rgds, Thomas.
The quality is far to high for a car badge Thomas. The strike and finish are better than the 1964 version with lugs i have .
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  #17  
Old 17-10-17, 08:46 AM
monty monty is offline
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Morning Mike.I have had in the past two examples of this badge.You are correct the one you have in this thread is as you rightly say is better quality than the other 1964 example you mention with loops.
My take on it is that it started out life looped and has been converted in its life time.If this is the case then its probably a one off for a private reason on behalf of the owner at the time.
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  #18  
Old 17-10-17, 10:42 PM
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It might be useful to look at this another way. If this was not the pouch belt badge worn by the SNCOs of the Green Jackets Brigade, especially the 1st Battalions (late Oxf & Bucks LI), then what was the badge used for that purpose?
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  #19  
Old 18-10-17, 09:20 AM
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Could you give us some measurements on size please Mike?

Cheers,
Mark
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  #20  
Old 18-10-17, 09:24 AM
monty monty is offline
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Morning.If you think about it this way.Say the rank of colour Sgt & above means Snr ncos?.That gives us say a ball park figure of around 15? serving in a battalion at any one time.If you put all the heads on this forum together,No one has seen one before.It is a living memory badge I am sure they would have come to the collectors market before now.
I suppose if its not a snr ncos badge it could have been converted to go on a wooden shield to make a trophy?Some type of mess tradition to be mounted & put on a table?
regards Gary
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  #21  
Old 18-10-17, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by MBrockway View Post
Could you give us some measurements on size please Mike?

Cheers,
Mark
Its the same size as the standard cap badge Mark. Approx 44mm high.
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  #22  
Old 18-10-17, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by monty View Post
Morning.If you think about it this way.Say the rank of colour Sgt & above means Snr ncos?.That gives us say a ball park figure of around 15? serving in a battalion at any one time.If you put all the heads on this forum together,No one has seen one before.It is a living memory badge I am sure they would have come to the collectors market before now.
I suppose if its not a snr ncos badge it could have been converted to go on a wooden shield to make a trophy?Some type of mess tradition to be mounted & put on a table?
regards Gary
Hi Gary,if you put your 15 over 3 Btns would give us 45 . The few images ive seen are mostly Depot staff. The Sgts definately wore.black snake belts round the waist.
I did have 2.ideas which maybe work. Both involve conversion from lugs to screwposts.
1) Crossbelt for a cadet RSM,as Toby mentioned ,on the narrower belt.
2) Pouch badge for the 1st Btn as the never brought a crossbelt or pouch badge to the party.
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  #23  
Old 18-10-17, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
I suspect it might be a SNCOs pouch belt badge. If I recall correctly the pouch belt was narrower and badge smaller than the officer equivalents.
Current practice in The Rifles is the SNCO's cross belt width is 50mm versus the 76mm of the Officer/WO version.

The cross belt back pouch badge is the same size for both groups though.

In terms of screw length and north/south position, Mike's badge does seem to have very similar fittings to a back pouch badge - see image of the current Rifles version below - but the design seems wrong to me. I don't have much definitive material on dress regulations for the RB in the Green Jacket Brigade period, or for the RGJ, but in 1958 would the back pouch badge for the Rifle Brigade not have been the strung hunting horn?

Under current Rifles dress regulations, the SNCO's version of the badge worn on the front of the cross belt is smaller than the Officer/WO equivalent, but of the same design, and it still carries the battle honours that are missing here.

Mark
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Rifles cross belt back pouch badge 01.jpg (24.6 KB, 10 views)
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  #24  
Old 18-10-17, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBrockway View Post
Current practice in The Rifles is the SNCO's cross belt width is 50mm versus the 76mm of the Officer/WO version.

The cross belt back pouch badge is the same size for both groups though.

In terms of screw length and north/south position, Mike's badge does seem to have very similar fittings to a back pouch badge - see image of the current Rifles version below - but the design seems wrong to me. I don't have much definitive material on dress regulations for the RB in the Green Jacket Brigade period, or for the RGJ, but in 1958 would the back pouch badge for the Rifle Brigade not have been the strung hunting horn?

Under current Rifles dress regulations, the SNCO's version of the badge worn on the front of the cross belt is smaller than the Officer/WO equivalent, but of the same design, and it still carries the battle honours that are missing here.

Mark
Mark, the issue in this context is what the 1st Battalion, Ex Oxf & Bucks LI wore. We know that KRRC and RB officers wore their own regiments badges, and probably their SNCOs too. Given your comments regarding screw posts positioned North and South, it seems to me that perhaps the subject of the thread is the pouch badge that was worn by the Oxf & Bucks LI battalion, i.e. the 1st Battalion of the Green Jackets Bde, who were required for the first time in their history to wear rifle green and associated regalia (they had previously been scarlet clad so it was a big change for them).
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  #25  
Old 18-10-17, 11:51 AM
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Toby,if you look online,there is a set of dress regs regarding the Ox & Bucks LI.
It covers dress,badges etc. The change of size of the badge down to what we call the beret badge size. Change of shoulder titles . I dont recall a mention of Bandsmen ,who would have worn a pouch.
There is however a pouch badge on screws thats the same as the beret badge. This is chrome and on 2 screws,my thought on it is that is to the Light Division band.
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  #26  
Old 18-10-17, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike H View Post
Toby,if you look online,there is a set of dress regs regarding the Ox & Bucks LI.
It covers dress,badges etc. The change of size of the badge down to what we call the beret badge size. Change of shoulder titles . I dont recall a mention of Bandsmen ,who would have worn a pouch.
There is however a pouch badge on screws thats the same as the beret badge. This is chrome and on 2 screws,my thought on it is that is to the Light Division band.
Thanks Mike, the thing that nags at me is that when admitted to the Green Jackets Brigade, all three regiments (Oxf&Bucks, KRRC, RB) were obliged to wear the Brigade cap badge and rifles dress and regalia, which was no big change for the latter two regiments, but must have been a big change for the former given that they had never worn rifles regalia before. I am unsure what the policy was regarding collar badges for the three regiments, as the two (original) rifle regiments had not previously used them. Once transformed into a new regiment as RGJ, some aspects changed again in order to present a more unified appearance. I am unsure what happened concerning pouch belt ornaments, how long it took, and how strictly it was observed.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 18-10-17 at 12:30 PM.
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  #27  
Old 18-10-17, 12:05 PM
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Fair comment Toby - but I was picking up on Mike acquiring this badge alongside a 1937 hallmarked RB badge.

Fully agree the OBLI/1st Green Jackets (43rd and 52nd) prior to 1958 were redcoats and did not wear crossbelts meaning a big culture shock when they went into rifle green.

Not so sure about KRRC and RB retaining their insignia after 1958 though.

The 1958 KRRC Chronicle has this on the matter ...

Quote:
Reorganisation
On 7th November, 1958, the new Green Jackets Brigade was officially formed with the three Regiments assuming their new titles :

1st Green Jackets, 43rd and 52nd.
2nd Green Jackets, The King's Royal Rifle Corps.
3rd Green Jackets, The Rifle Brigade

On the previous day H.R.H. The Duke of Gloucester, attended by the Colonels Commandant, took a parade at the Depot to mark the occassion and the new Brigade badge and the Green Jackets flash were seen on parade for the first time.

To all 60th Riflemen it must have been sad not to see the familiar black Maltese cross and the bugle on its red cherry on parade but at the same time it must have been with considerable relief that all realised that we have been spared the far more drastic changes that have had to be accepted by so many other regiments. Our old title is included in our new one ; our abbreviated title is still K.R.R.C., and, in the illogical but traditional manner of Riflemen, we can still continue to refer to ourselves as the 60th. The new badge includes our Maltese Cross and is in fact based on a crossbelt badge worn in the 60th in 1822-27.
I've attached a drawing of the 60th's 1822-27 crossbelt badge below, sourced from Astley Terry's Uniform, Armament and Equipment Appendix to the Annals of the KRRC from 1913.

The similarity to Mike's badge is clear.

It also resolves for me the issue of the tablet between cross and crown containing 'PENINSULA' rather than 'WATERLOO' as per the RB's badge. I was scratching my head over that!

The gobbet from the KRRC Chronicle above strongly suggests the badges were standardised across all three regiments in the Green Jacket Brigade.

If this badge is a back pouch badge, then it could be from any of the three regiments.

I'll do a trawl through my 1950's KRRC material to see if I can spot a back pouch badge in a photo, though I guess this will be a long shot

Mark

Last edited by MBrockway; 18-10-17 at 12:12 PM.
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  #28  
Old 18-10-17, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike H View Post
Its the same size as the standard cap badge Mark. Approx 44mm high.
Current Rifles regs suggest the back pouch badge is the standard cap badge but just made with north and south screw mounts.

No proof as to what happened in 1958 of course.

Mark
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  #29  
Old 18-10-17, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBrockway View Post
Fair comment Toby - but I was picking up on Mike acquiring this badge alongside a 1937 hallmarked RB badge.

Fully agree the OBLI/1st Green Jackets (43rd and 52nd) prior to 1958 were redcoats and did not wear crossbelts meaning a big culture shock when they went into rifle green.

Not so sure about KRRC and RB retaining their insignia after 1958 though.

The 1958 KRRC Chronicle has this on the matter ...



I've attached a drawing of the 60th's 1822-27 crossbelt badge below, sourced from Astley Terry's Uniform, Armament and Equipment Appendix to the Annals of the KRRC from 1913.

The similarity to Mike's badge is clear.

It also resolves for me the issue of the tablet between cross and crown containing 'PENINSULA' rather than 'WATERLOO' as per the RB's badge. I was scratching my head over that!

The gobbet from the KRRC Chronicle above strongly suggests the badges were standardised across all three regiments in the Green Jacket Brigade.

If this badge is a back pouch badge, then it could be from any of the three regiments.

I'll do a trawl through my 1950's KRRC material to see if I can spot a back pouch badge in a photo, though I guess this will be a long shot

Mark
Yes Mark, I accept that it might well be a badge adopted by all three battalions, as formed by the old regiments, for the pouch belts. The smaller size made me think it must be for SNCOs, but that is just supposition. I knew (recall) that the same cap badge was worn by all three battalions, but I vaguely remember that many officers continued to wear RB pouch belt badges (because of their similarity) and was unsure if the ex KRRC did the same. It's all a bit hotch potch in some respects.
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  #30  
Old 18-10-17, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBrockway View Post
I'll do a trawl through my 1950's KRRC material to see if I can spot a back pouch badge in a photo, though I guess this will be a long shot

Mark
Trawl through the 1958-1965 KRRC Chronicles completed and unsurprisingly no luck. The only photographs with riflemen in full dress with their backs visible were too small to identify the exact back pouch badge being used.

I can confirm though that the cap badge was the silver wreathed Maltese Cross as per Mike's example, not the old blackened KRRC Maltese Cross nor the old KRRC cherry, but that the front cross belt badge was the standard pre-1958 KRRC Maltese Cross with battle honours, NOT the new Green Jackets Brigade badge.

This is in line with the final edition of A Brief History of the KRRC by Wallace: "some idiosyncratic customs and dress distinctions persisted".

The current Rifles cross belt and furniture would set you back over £300 for a plate set and more than £1000 for a sterling silver set.

Not surprising then if regimental cross belt badge distinctions were retained!

No help on the key question as to whether the three regiments switched to a new back pouch badge in 1958 though

Mark

Last edited by MBrockway; 21-10-17 at 01:26 AM.
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